2008: Licensed to Kill part 2

Speaker: Hi, this is Patty Hester at Fitness For You. I'm coming to you tonight to tell you as I'm sitting on my front porch, I want to give you a little hello and tell you that, uh, yeah, um, I'm getting ready because it's just going to start turning, start becoming dark earlier and earlier. It's getting to be time to start bringing our fitness maybe indoors in the evening. Patty Hester is a 70-year-old fitness instructor outside of Detroit, Michigan. So with that being said, I hope to see you at Clarkson Community Ed starting next week, September 19th, this coming Monday. It will be, Monday will be Strong Nation, 7 to 7. 30. Tuesday will be Pound, 7 to 8. Wednesday will be Rev and Flow. Oh my gosh, that's 6. 30 to 7. 30. That's the times it always switches me off. You know, messes us up. Thursday is Strong Nation. Again, and that's, Strong Nation is a 35 minute class. So if you can take Monday and Thursday. It's, it's a bonus, but you can do one or the other, you know, it's a, this is fitness for you, right? Um, and then no class on Friday, but on Saturday, Saturday mornings at nine o'clock, I'm offering functional step. I'm in my mid forties and I try to eat right and work out a few times a week, but I would have a hard time keeping up with Patti. And I'm so excited. I just, um, I fell in love with that. Remember the old school, you know, step classes? I remember going to the gym and doing the old school ones and fighting for a spot like you know, not, you know, not literally, but obviously trying to get in and get a spot there. Oh my gosh, so that was fun, but this is totally different and this takes it up a notch And kick it up, she does. Patty teaches hour long fitness classes multiple times a week. Step, Zumba, full body, you name it. She's full of life. But back in 2010, Patty came to terms with dying.

Patty Hester: in 2010,

Speaker: I had had, uh, a few bouts of pneumonia and, uh, so I had some questionable labs in my primary care. My internal medicine doctor said, you know, maybe we need to see a, a, um, hematologist A blood doctor

Patty Hester: And I said, yeah, okay, I, you

Speaker: know, I'm willing to do that, of course. And Which was Fareed research dr. fata

Patty Hester: Farah.

Speaker: Dr. Fareed Fata? Does that name ring a bell? He's the doctor featured in Season 2 of the Dr. Death Podcast. For over 9 years, For over 9 years, Dr. Fareed Fatah built a reputation as one of Michigan's top oncologists. His patients trusted him with their lives, believing that they were in the hands of a compassionate, skilled doctor. But that trust was built on a lie. But that trust was built on a lie. Between 2005 and 2013, Fata deliberately misdiagnosed more than 500, Fata deliberately misdiagnosed more than 550 people. Honestly, some estimates are even higher than that. In the thousands, maybe. Fata told, Fata told, Fata told healthy patients that they had cancer. Just so he, Fatah told healthy patients that they had cancer just so that he could profit off their fear. He subjected them to needles, chemotherapy, radiation, and invasive. He subjected them to infusions, chemotherapy, radiation, and invasive, and he subjected them to needles. He subjected, he subjected them to infusions, chemotherapy, radiation, invasive, invasive treatments keeping them sick and the money flowing. By the time he was caught, he had stolen over 34 million dollars from Medicare and other private insurers. Not just robbing the system, but robbing, not just robbing the system, but robbing his victims of their health, their dignity, and in some cases, their lives. At the time, Patty Hester had no idea. At the time, Patty Hester had no clue

Patty Hester: So I looked it, I, you know, looked

Speaker: it up. I didn't, nothing, I, you saw no former cases of anything questionable, nothing at all. And so, I mean, I felt like I was doing my due diligence, researching anybody that I'm going to see. Patty wasn't worried about having cancer. She just wanted to rule it out.

Patty Hester: And by then I was feeling better.

Speaker: because like I said, I have a history of asthma and pneumonia. Uh, so I went in and saw him and. He was very, uh, very soft spoken. His lobby was quite filled with patients he was, uh, very soft spoken. He,

Patty Hester: you know, ordered

Speaker: lab draws I'm well now, I'm not sick. I just did it as a follow up, since I did have these low lab counts. But he said, we'll see where they're at She draws blood for the lab and leaves. Pretty routine stuff.

Patty Hester: he

Speaker: told me after I waited again for a very long time, that, um, my labs were abnormal, and that I needed a bone marrow biopsy because it's showing, like, symptoms of, you know, maybe leukemia, Patty Hester is sitting in Dr. Fata's office terrified. There was no time to process this. And now that, and now she has to do a bone marrow biopsy right then and there?

Patty Hester: . he did the bone marrow biopsy.

Speaker: It was really painful A week later, Dr. ADA's office calls her back in for a follow-up. This time, Patty tells her husband to go with her to the appointment. They walk in and wait. They walk in and wait, and wait and wait. After two hours, Dr. FTA finally comes in.

Patty Hester: When I came returned for the results. Like a week later, he

Speaker: said that, uh, he had bad news for me and hopeful news for me. So, life is going on for me. You know, you said, um, you have myelodysplastic syndrome, MDS, MDS is when the bone marrow fails to produce enough healthy blood. Dr. Fata pretty much told her that this is a rare blood cancer and that she didn't have much time to live. If she plans to slow this thing down before it becomes leukemia, she needs to start chemo now. This is a classic con artist one oh. This is classic con artist 1 0 1. Scammers create fear, uncertain scammers create fear, urgency, and a false sense of au and a false sense of authority to manipulate their victims. They short circuit your rational thinking and force you into making quick decisions. Dr. Fota wasn't just a bad doctor, he was a master manipulator by telling patients that their disease was aggressive and that time was running out. He left them too terrified to question him. Just like a con artist convincing a victim to drain their bank accounts before a once in a lifetime opportunity disappears. Fatah made sure his patients didn't have time to get a second opinion, to stop and think, to realize that they were being played. And in the end, he wasn't just stealing their money. He was stealing years off their lives. He was stealing years off their lives. In today's episode, we are going to hear Patty's horrific story, and show you just how messed up the U. S. health, and show you, and show you just, and show you how, And show you just how messed up the U. S. healthcare system really is. I'm Javier Leyva, and this is Pretend. stories about real people pretending to be someone else. Fareed Fattah told her

Patty Hester: if we don't address

Speaker: this, It could, you can convert over to leukemia

Javier: is this what you were expecting? Is this a news you were expecting?

Patty Hester: not

Speaker: at all. No, no, because I did not feel sick. I did not, and I know there's many times people have cancer, but this is a blood cancer and you know, that's how you treat it was blood cancers . So, I'm dependent on his results, but I I don't the way I feel doesn't coexist with what he's saying about my diagnosis.. It doesn't make sense. people with MDS, otherwise known as myelodysplastic syndromes, typically feel exhausted, weak, dizzy. They start losing weight. They start losing weight. They bruise easily. They start losing weight. They bruise easily. They start losing weight. They bruise easily. Patty didn't have any of these symptoms.

Patty Hester: he

Speaker: said that according to my results and my bone marrow biopsy and my labs, Then I need to start chemo right away And my husband's looking at me and I'm like no, I'm not gonna do that. Just draw my blood today because I really honestly, I do not feel sick I don't, I mean, I'm not tired. I'm not fatigued. I'm not bruising easy. I'm not I'm not short of breath My asthma is under control. So just draw my blood today, which they did. We waited another half hour and then he came back into the room and said, Oh my lady, today is your lucky day. Your, your labs are good today. We'll, We'll, but we need to start you right away on iron and um, and then we're going to go into, um, IVIG, but first we're going to start with iron, but you will, you will need to start doing chemo. But Patty knows her body. What this doctor is telling her just does not jive with how she feels. If she had cancer, she would know

Patty Hester: Because by then I'm feeling really good. I haven't been sick. I'm working full

Speaker: time in the ER. I'm teaching fitness classes on my day off, you know, days off So, she refused chemo.

Patty Hester: So

Speaker: this kind of took my husband back. When we got in the car, he's like, I can't believe, he, he's world renowned. He's telling you, you need to start a chemo and you don't want to do it. Like my labs are not, I, see the bone marrow biopsy, but it doesn't,

Javier: Yeah.

Patty Hester: My labs aren't good right now, so why, why

Speaker: would I make myself sick first? You know, I mean, really that's how,

Javier: Yeah.

Patty Hester: you know, that was my attitude.

Speaker: Why would I make myself sick when I feel, walking in here feeling fine? So

Javier: know your body,

Patty Hester: yeah, yeah,

Speaker: SECOND OPINION

Javier: And did you ever think about getting a, did you ever think about getting a second

Speaker: opinion? Did ever cross your

Patty Hester: yeah, that's funny you'd say that. You know, my niece is an internal medicine

Speaker: doctor. Um, I work with doctors That's you know, that's what I did. I worked in the hospital. I worked in the ER I had lots of young residents come through you have interns come through You know, you get to know a lot of people and talk to a lot of people it wouldn't matter. Here's the thing The, the, what the paperwork said is what's the result of your bone marrow biopsy. So if I went to another doctor and said, I want another bone marrow biopsy and I just had one, I had. Blue Cross through my husband worked for General Motors. I had uh, insurance through the hospital I worked through, worked for, and I bought up, tiered up. So insurance, I was not worried about the finance of having a second opinion. The fact is, though, no one's going to do another bone marrow biopsy on me and when I just had one. Because what they're going to look at is the results. No one's going to think, nobody's going to think that someone, altered your results. Nobody. That, that wasn't even a mindset at the time, that anybody, you know. I mean, a lot of people said you should have it checked out again in six months. And my niece said, you know, I'm looking at your results. They do kind of look suspicious, you know, that this doesn't look good. and I'm like, yeah, but I don't, I don't feel any of these things that I've researched and talked to you about. I don't feel any of this. agreed to start treatment

Patty Hester: So I, I told, I agreed to

Speaker: start treatment and, but not chemo. So that put me in a whole different perspective, you know, because he didn't, he just, he gave me a weird look, like why wouldn't she do this? I gave things away. If you're talking materialistic thing, When she gave things away bc she thought she was dying

Patty Hester: I thought I was dying.

Speaker: I gave things away to people that I love and care about, or a friend who, uh, who needed new skis. I gave her my skis. I'm like, well, I guess I'm gonna be needing these, you know, I'm not, you know, my chance of living is what, So, I went on for three years to be treated by him until the day of his arrest. That next week I was due to come in again for a treatment On August 6th, 2013, federal agents rated Fareed Fat's Home and several of his medical offices, Federal agents spent most of the day here. They left just a short time ago with easily 100 boxes of evidence. FBI agents armed with red dollies rolled stacks of banker boxes out of the building. The U. S. Attorney announced today Fadda is charged with healthcare fraud, including allegations his practice submitted 35 million in false Medicare claims. Some patients couldn't believe it. I mean, they truly refused to believe it. I don't believe a word But Dr Fata gave poison to people who didn't even have cancer. And he gave poison to these people not to keep them alive, but to make money. because it was profitable for him to do that. I think it's terrible if he's given them therapy and they didn't have cancer. 85 year old Pat Wieniawski is fighting cancer in her lungs and liver. She is shocked her doctor was arrested today. It's very upsetting because I really liked him. I trusted him. Are you going to get a second opinion now? Yes, I am. I can't understand. I've talked to many people and they say, well, why are you still on Rituxan for the last seven years? Why, you know, because he told me at the beginning it would be a year of treatment and two years of maintenance. I twitch all the time. I shake to me. This is almost like he was doing genocide. Charles Charter was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2018. He really did have cancer. After his tumors were removed, after his After his tumors, after his tumors were removed, Dr. Pot, after his tumors were removed, Dr. Fada put him on after his tumors were removed. Dr. Fada put him on chemotherapy for five years. After he was arrested, I consulted a oncologists and they said that the standard protocol should have been six months of chemotherapy and then, uh, observation after that. which there wasn't. And i years of continuous chemo Five years of chemo isn't just extremely rare. It's like a five year war on the body, and the damage doesn't stop when the infusions do. Fatigue that never fades. Chemo brain that scrambles memory and focus. Nerve damage that turns hands and feet numb for life. The heart, the lungs, the kidneys. All are at risk, weakened by years of the toxic drugs. All at risk, weakened by years of the toxic drug. Bones grow brittle. Hormones crash. Some patients even develop new cancers caused by the very treatment meant to save them. Chemo doesn't just kill cancer, it changes you. And after five years, what's left might not, what's left might not feel like survival at all. And what's left might not feel like survival at all. I've developed Severe neuropathy in my hands, feet, and legs.

Patty Hester: It was

Speaker: all a lie. You know, it was deceit,

Javier: I mean, to ask you, how did that make you feel? It's like an understatement, because I can't even imagine. Because on one hand, your gut was right. You didn't have

Patty Hester: Right.

Javier: You weren't sick, but at the same time it's like you had to have been beyond betrayed. I

Patty Hester: yeah, that's an understatement.

Speaker: You know, it was, it was like, I was so angry. I mean, I was so relieved that I was going to live and see my grandchildren, but I was so angry. And to see my son just fall apart like that was like, and my husband, you know, I destroyed him. and destroyed my family. it seemed like everyone who walked into his clinic was prey. No one was spared. OTHER VICTIMS

Patty Hester: I mean, one of the girls on the, on the committee that I was on, on the, on the committee that I was on,

Speaker: She's uh, a lawyer. She was a friend of his. He treated her exactly the same way he treated me. And she was young and she was pregnant.

Javier: And that was a friend of his.

Patty Hester: yeah.

Speaker: Oh, she's younger. of course. She was a young, she was a young mom and she was pregnant Monica Flag, one of Fata's newer patients, was referred to see him a year before his arrest. He told her she had cancer He said we caught it early and that I would be on a lifetime maintenance dose of chemotherapy. So it wasn't going to be a real aggressive treatment. I was feeling fine. I continue to feel fine until I started some of my treatments with him. But then, as luck would have it, Monica tripped and fell down the stairs When I broke my leg, I heard both my bones crack. Um, I knew that my leg had been broken in half. And that was probably what saved her life. Normally, Dr. Fata would have overseen her care, but because he was on vacation when the. Because when he was on, but because he was on vacation when the accident happened, Monica was seen by another doctor in Fat's practice He read my chart. He looked at me very strangely. I'll never forget the look. He came back again the following day and said to me, I want you to know I I work for Dr. Fada, and I want you to know you're 51, you're extremely active, you're a professional, you don't have cancer, and you need to not ever go back to Dr. Fada. Faced with overwhelming evidence, Dr. Fareed Fat pled guilty to healthcare. Dr. Fareed Fat pled Dr. Fareed Fota. No. Dr. Fareed FTA Plead. Pleaded. Dr. Fare fought Dr. Fare fta. Pleaded guilty to healthcare fraud, money laundering, and conspiracy. Admitting that he knowingly subjected hundreds of patients to unnecessary chemotherapy just to enrich himself. Just to enrich himself. In 2015, he was sentenced to 45 years in federal prison beyond his prison term. Fota was ordered to forfeit $17.6 million in asset and paid $26.4 million in restitution to his victims. Investigators also uncovered a hidden cash reserve of 9 million stashed away in secret accounts. Additionally, in 2016, a civil settlement awarded 8 million to 43 of his former, to 43 of his former patients who had filed medical mal, to 43 of his former patients who had filed medical malpractice against FATA and the three, and three Michigan hospitals, against FATA three Michigan hospitals. ad tease So what about the insurance companies? Over six years, over six years, FATA submitted approximately 225 million dollars in claims to Medicare and private insurers for unnecessary treatments. They're victims in the story too. Oh, but before you feel too sorry for these guys, you won't believe what they did next AD BREAK If you thought Dr. Fata's victims had suffered enough, just wait. This ordeal didn't end with his conviction. It only got worse when their insurance companies caught, it only got worse when their insurance companies came after them. These victims had already endured unnecessary chemotherapy, these victims had already endured, these victims had already endured, these victims had already endured unnecessary chemotherapy, These patients had already endured unnecessary chemotherapy. These patients had already endured unnecessary chemotherapy, painful treatments, and years of trauma. But instead of finding relief, they were dragged into yet another battle, this time in court. After covering the cost After covering the cost of Fata After covering the cost of Farid Fatah's After covering the cost of Dr. Fat's fraud, after covering the cost of Dr. Fat's fraudulent treatments, many insurance companies turned around and sued the very people he deceived, demanding money, demanding their money back. SHE GOT SUED BY THE INSURANCE COMPANY

Patty Hester: I was being

Speaker: sued by my insurance company. So, tell me how that.

Javier: You, you were getting

Patty Hester: Well, yeah, because they paid for treatment that was not necessary.

Speaker: They were victims

Javier: is that your fault?

Speaker: but they consider themselves victims. So in federal court, They show up. They want, you know, they want money. They want to be paid because he defrauded, you know, all these insurance This process is known as subrogation. Subrogation is a fancy way of saying insurance companies can step in and take money that they paid on your behalf. In this case, that meant going after FATA's victims, demanding a cut of their settlement to cover the cost of the fraudulent treatments, as if they hadn't suffered enough. We were, uh, victimized once by the doctor now and, and now by the system, I guess, and the insurance companies. Um. It's, uh, it's very overwhelming at times. At first glance, subrogation seems unfair, right? Victims pay their insurance, victims already pay their insurance premium, so why should they, so why should the insurer take a portion of their settlement? The answer lies buried in the fine print of almost every health insurance policy. These clauses state that if the insurer pays for medical treatment and the patient later wins money related to those injuries, the insurer has the right to recover its cost. The insurer has the right to recover its cost. But, for victims, but for victims, especially those of medical fraud, like Dr. Fata's patients, This means that after years of unnecessary suffering, the money meant to compensate them is clawed back, is clawed back by the very same system that was supposed to protect them. But wait, but wait a minute. This is the same health care system that routinely denies coverage for necessary treatments, forcing patients to jump through endless hoops just to get prior approval? Yeah. The same system. The same system that tells cancer patients that their chemotherapy isn't covered or that life saving procedures isn't normal, or that life saving procedures is not, or that life saving procedure is, or that a life saving procedure is, quote, not medically necessary. So where were they when Dr. Fata and Dr. Weiner and countless other doctors were carrying out one of the biggest medical frauds in history? Where was all that oversight when insurers happily reimbursed millions for toxic, unnecessary treatments? Doctors like Fata and Weiner knew exactly how to game the system. They understood that big, complex surgeries and experimental treatments, the kind that patients actually fight to get, are heavily scrutinized by insurance companies. Those treatments often get denied, buried under endless prior authorizations and red tape. But chemo? Oh, well, that's a different story. Chemo has standard billing codes. It's routine. It's predictable. And most importantly, it slides right through the system with very little pushback. Insurance companies don't flag it the same way that they do expensive and cutting edge procedures. And that's what made this the perfect scam. And that's what made this the perfect scam. Fata and Weiner didn't have to fabricate elaborate medical mysteries or convince insurers to approve risky new treatments. They just kept the chemo flowing, knowing that it would get paid without question. Here's Dan, here's Dr.

Patty Hester: that that

Speaker: had got my, um, next treatment approved. You never left the office without having your next treatment already approved by the insurance company. So they, you know, they brilliantly paid for treatment.

Javier: yeah, yeah, it just shows how broken the system

Patty Hester: And no, there's no accountability.

Speaker: You know, there's no accountability. No one's ever told me what was injected into me or anyone else. There's no accountability that the insurance company readily approved, uh, uh, lethal drugs, expensive and lethal Without any hesitation to 1, Randy Sasick. Here's Dr. Randy Sasick, who you heard from in Part 1. Randy_Sasich: There's a relatively simple way to short circuit trust in human beings, and it seems infuriatingly simple, the path they use. Dr. Mata and Dr. Weiner have a lot of similarities because they're exploiting the loopholes which are gigantic in the American health care system.

Javier: And there's crazy incentives to do this, which is nuts.

Speaker: INSURANCE IS BROKEN

Javier: And, I mean, this story is relevant, semi relevant to the, the anger that's being poured out to, with insurance companies, you know

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: but you're absolutely right. The anger is palpable in the U.

Javier: and from every direction, right? Because the system is broken. It is obviously broken

Speaker: but that's the thing. It's not even just cancer. I mean, it's just disgusting. And these are real doctors. And then, you know, I mean, we're not even, I was doing a story and I might pause that story because this one's more interesting of people like holistic doctors and stuff promising, you know, voodoo, you know, like all this stuff that's. That's almost expected, right? The charlatans that are out there. But you don't expect your doctor to be the charlatan, right? Randy_Sasich: no, you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, if, if you believe in or ascribe to Western medicine, don't expect your provider, MD, DO, nurse practitioner now, or PA, you expect them to follow the Western science and do for you what's best for your health. Primarily, and that is not happening. It is not happening. You said broken for the system. I think it's functioning exceptionally efficiently for the people who own parts of it and make money off of it. But for, for patients broken doesn't even get there. It's a, it's a horrific, expensive killing machine right now. It's really that bad.

Javier: It's really, really bad. And it's going to hit a fever pitch. I mean, if it's

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: Yeah, though having most of the population happy that a man got assassinated on the streets of New York, I don't know where we go more feverish from there. Like, but it's going to happen. I think you're right.

Javier: I mean, that was, that was a little surprising to me that how, how ecstatic people were where I would have never put money on that, that people would

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: I wouldn't have thought people would be so publicly happy. No,

Javier: is not the right word, you know, but, but it's like the closest word.

Speaker: It's, it's just a symbolism of the frustration, but, but here we are. I mean, Randy_Sasich: Yeah, you don't want to say happy about a man's violent death.

Javier: No, nobody wants that.

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: I want what I went through and what the, my patient's family went through to mean something.

Javier: And

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: I want some justice out of this. I do.

Javier: you paid a price because

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: a

Javier: I, I can't imagine, you know, like you said, disagreeing with another doctor's diagnosis or whatever. That's one thing. But you know, doing what you did, you know, cost you your career, possibly, I mean, maybe even

Speaker: Randy_Sasich: I'm, I'm, I'm happy about realizing that I can't function in the U. S. health system. But yeah, it did cost me my career. In America. No one's going to hire me for this. I'm, I am now forever a Judas, a snitch. Um, and that's just how human beings work. it's affecting all of us on every level, providers, nurses, pharmacists, it, and it was, it was really affecting me and I'm done with it. Um, uh, I, I, maybe I go to another country, but I'm not interfacing with health insurance in America. Again, I'm not doing it. it works exceptionally well for the people profiting from it. For the hospitals, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical giants, it's a money making machine. But for patients, for doctors who try to do the right thing, it's a horrific, expensive soul crushing system that choose people up and spit some right back out. Dr. Fata and Dr. Weiner aren't outliers. Dr. Fata and Dr. Weiner are not outliers. In fact, they're symptoms of a system that rewards exploitation. They figured out the loopholes, they played the game, and no one stopped them. Not the hospitals, not the insurers, not the regulators. And when it was all over, the same insurance companies that let it happen, turned around and sued the victims. And what happens to the people who speak out? Doctors like Randy Sasic, well, they're exiled. And here's the part that should terrify you. This isn't just about cancer. This isn't just about two corrupt doctors. This is happening everywhere, in every field of medicine. OBGYNs performing unnecessary hysterectomies, spinal surgeries, mastectomies. It's disgusting. Doctors performing unnecessary hysterectomies, Doctors performing unnecessary hysterectomies, spinal surgeries, mastectomies, it's disgusting. Most doctors are honorable. They take the Hippocratic Oath seriously and dedicate their lives to healing, not harming. But when bad actors like Fata and Weiner exploit the system, they don't just betray their patients, they betray the very foundation of medicine itself. So where does this end? When does the frustration, the anger, the boiling resentment towards the system finally hit a breaking point? Maybe we're already there END OF EPISODE /// ADD MUSIC SHOW NOTES I really would like to know your thoughts on these two episodes and if you've ever experienced anything like this, uh, send me an email at Javier at pretendradio. org. Also, some of you may be, also some of you may be wondering, where are they now? Well, Dr. Weiner is still going through the legal process. There have Well, Dr. Weiner from episode one is still going through the legal process. There are no criminal charges against him. There are no criminal charges against him at the moment. And Dr. Fata, well, he's in prison and he's saying that his As for Dr. Fata, well, he's still in prison in South Carolina, and he says that his health And he says that his health is failing. He says that he is not getting the medical care that he is entitled to. That is why he is and he's seeking compassionate release. citing that he is not receiving proper medical treatment behind bars in Williamsburg Prison in South Carolina. He has food and shelter, and he has treatment, health care treatment. Oh, gee, what was me? And now he wants showed us mercy. When he showed no mercy. That's it for this week. Today's episode was written by me, Javier Leyva, and it was produced Javier That's it for this episode. Well, that's it for today. This episode was written and produced by me, Javier Leyva, and it was edited by the talented Poonath Shenoy with the podcast pundants. We'll be back with a brand new episode next week. Of course, you could always get the latest episode on Patreon or PretendPlus on Apple Podcasts. And it's more than just brand new episodes. On Patreon, we really do have a community. Sometimes we listen to the episodes live together. That's a lot of fun. So, consider, if you like this show, consider supporting it on Patreon or Apple Podcasts on PretendPlus. Alright, thank you so much. And remember, don't forget to leave a review and follow us on social at PretendPod. Alright, talk to you next week.