Chain of Command part 1

Speaker: music: Cult leaders. Every cult book in America that's ever been written by real Christians has a list. music: JWS Mormons, seventh Day Adventism, shall we Go on? This is the voice of Michael Eckel, the CEO, and the head pastor of the New Testament Christian Churches of America. I know it's a mouthful, so we'll just call them NTCC for short. music: All of them are listed because the doctrines are erroneous and some of them promote worship of a person over the worship of Jesus Christ. music: those are the people who are all about themselves worship me. I have great knowledge. Look to me, I have a special revelation. Look to me, moron showed me the golden plates. These clips were pulled from the church's livestream page. and I gotta say your preacher shouldn't work this hard to convince you that he's not a cult leader. So why is Michael Eckel saying all this after all? This isn't your typical sermon. It's textbook cult stuff according to former members. Mind control, total isolation, financial control check. Check, check, but what makes this alleged cult different? But what makes this alleged cult different is who they're recruiting members of the US military. In fact, they brand themselves the ministry to the military. NTCC churches are strategically located near US military bases. Especially bases located overseas. Their sales pitch is that they are a home away from home, a safe and welcoming space for single lonely American soldiers. There are more than a hundred NTCC churches worldwide, and if you believe Wikipedia, the New Testament Christian Churches of America and TCC has about 10,000 members, but former members believe that those numbers are inflated. They think that the real number might be closer to 3000 to 5,000 members globally. NTCC operates more like a family owned business than a church,

Michael Kekel: God, God.

Preacher: Praise God.

Speaker: Michael Eckel inherited the whole thing from its founder, his father-in-law, Roger W. Davis, who died in 2014 By keeping leadership in the family, the succession, guarantees, continuity of power and money. Eckel even joked about it in one of his sermons.

Michael Kekel: I'm the chairman of the board and I'm the pastor of the organization. That's it. Pastor Kel is the CEO. There are no other CEO in this organization. And it's CEOI think that's Chief Executive Officer. Is that right? But he's not only that. Now, he's a lot of other things too. But he's the CEO and he's the president. He's the precedent of the corporation organization. there's a lot of authority invested in the CEO. The precedent of New Testament Christian churches of American Incorporated. But if you have a problem with the precedent and the CEO of this organization, he is not leaving.

Speaker: INTRO Today we're starting a new series called Chain of Command, two churches, both targeting the military, and this isn't just a story about control and cult-like behavior. It's about the money they're pulling from their own members and from the US government. I'm Javier Eva, and this is pretend. Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. WHY MILITARY MEMBERS music: , Why the military? Why would they target military members?

Sarah Dejonghe: one, they're, they're very used to taking orders, and to following authority. And number two, they come with a steady paycheck.

Speaker: meet Sarah De Young.

Sarah Dejonghe: I joined the Navy when I was 18 years old.

Speaker: When most people picture the Navy, they think ships, submarines, aircraft carriers. But the Seabees are a different animal altogether. They almost never go out to sea. They are a construction battalion of the Navy. They build roads, bridges, airfields often where people are actively trying to kill you. In 1996, the cold is over, the economy's booming. The internet is just starting to take off. Hmm. In 1996, Sarah left her hometown in Massachusetts with no idea where she'd end up and what she'd be doing.

Sarah Dejonghe: I got sent to Okinawa, Japan.

Speaker: Being deployed overseas is a lot like going to college. You're finally free outta your parents' house in a strange new country, except instead of a dorm, you're in a military base in Japan, of course you're gonna let loose.

Sarah Dejonghe: We partied pretty hard in Okawa. It was a group of like construction men, so you can imagine, you know, And I was three months into my deployment, it was Christmas night, and, um, I was doing my laundry and these two guys approached me on base and they invited me out to church that night. So, you know, here I am halfway around the world. I am 20 years old. I'm far away from my family. Um, it's holidays. I don't really go to church. I'm not really religious, but, it seemed like a nice thing to do but I still said no

Javier: so who are these guys? Other military personnel, or

Sarah Dejonghe: military personnel. Yes.

Javier: did you know them or did.

Sarah Dejonghe: no, they, what this is called, they've, coined it as soul winning.

Speaker: SOUL WINNING Soul winning. If you ever had a Jehovah's Witness knock on your door, you've already, you already have a rough idea, except these guys aren't going door to door in your neighborhood. They're hovering around US Military bases members are specifically sent out to post exchanges on base house, on base housing, and barracks. When. Wherever young military members are specifically sent out, wherever young service military members are post exchanges on-base housing barracks, it's brilliant if you ask me, because they send their own military members out in uniform to recruit fellow soldiers, a soldier in uniform approaching another soldier. It's not a stranger. It's one of their own right.

Sarah Dejonghe: They would send them out to by two onto all of the bases and posts, around Okinawa and anywhere they have a serviceman home. There was like two young guys like my age, you know, inviting me out to a church service, and it's like I said, it seemed like a nice thing to do.

Javier: But you said no.

Sarah Dejonghe: you said no. I said no because I was just, it, it was kind of weird, you know, like I was expected to get in a van with them and go off to church, so.

Javier: like right, right

Sarah Dejonghe: then on the spot? Yes. Mm-hmm. So I didn't go, um. But I said, sure, maybe I'll go sometime. You Yeah.

Javier: Yeah. Um, I did not know how seriously they take a sometime.

Speaker: (music)

Sarah Dejonghe: they came back the following Sunday morning when I said I would probably be willing to go and I, I didn't answer my door and then they came back that night. and that time I went and.

Javier: Were they creepy or were they like No.

Sarah Dejonghe: like really friendly. Like, I

Javier: Okay.

Sarah Dejonghe: yeah.

Javier: So, so now they show up at your barracks. Yeah. And what And what happens next?

Sarah Dejonghe: So I went Sunday night. I got in their van.

Javier: Oh my God. I don't know why. That sounds terrifying.

Sarah Dejonghe: It does actually now thinking about it. So I got in their van and um, they took me off post to this church service out in town in Okinawa.

Speaker: FIRE AND BRIMSTONE

Sarah Dejonghe: I was raised Catholic. So this. Completely new to me. I, you know, it was definitely not a Catholic church service and, um, very much fire and brimstone. at the end of the service, this woman, um, who was sitting next to me, she turned to me with the sweetest and kindest, you know, offer and voice. And she just said, you know, would you like me to pray with you? And I was like, sure. You know, and so I did. oh, that made everyone so happy. And, um, they invited me. Immediately back the next day to the Serviceman's home for dinner for a home, cook dinner and fellowship. And that right there is where I should have said no, because that's where they get you.

Javier: that's just one red flag. That's not to say anytime somebody's friendly you should, you know, avoid them. But, but yeah, I could see how this progresses, right?

Speaker: They love you. Yes. Oh, they like, that's one thing I can say. I felt like I just felt so embraced by them. and so yeah, I said, I'll come, I'll come tomorrow. I'll come to that. Okay. And I didn't have a car because we were on deployment, so we didn't have cars over there. And so they sent a couple to come pick me up Four months. That's all it took. December to April, Sarah, January, February, March, April. Yeah. Sarah went back to California with her battalion, spent the rest of the year getting out of the Navy, and by December, 1997, she was headed to TCCs Bible Seminary in Washington State.

Sarah Dejonghe: That's where the organization's headquartered, by the way.So I got there and I started their school, which was not really a school, it was. was so stupid. It was like, you go to class, you pay money. Of course everything was in cash. Cash only. everything's mandatory. Cannot be late for anything. Your name will be written down. You'll lose your semester, you'll lose your money. You know, everything's so regimented. and there's rules for everything.

Javier: Who were the students? Who were the students at this

Sarah Dejonghe: all military, mostly all

Javier: okay. So like new recruits, basically. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dejonghe: Definitely. Yep.

Javier: And you had to pay and you had to pay money to go to the school.

Sarah Dejonghe: to go there, none of the teachers had any credentials. Your job as a student was literally just to write down everything they said, and then you go home and you typed out your notes on a typewriter and brought them back, and that was it.

Speaker: ALL ABUT CONTROL/COURTSHIP

Sarah Dejonghe: permission was needed for everything, even to call someone on the phone. You couldn't have anyone over your house or fellowship with anyone.

Speaker: REACH OUT TO FAMILY

Javier: Can you reach out to family?

Sarah Dejonghe: They have this saying, Yes, you can reach out to them and they don't, they want you to reach out enough that the family doesn't start calling the office, but they will also, they will say, you can never go home again. Just remember that you can never go home again. Like it's not the same. They're not your real family.

Speaker: Pastor Eckel has a sermon for that too.

Michael Kekel: It may have been your best friend, maybe someone you grew up with or whatever it may be, But they're my friends and avoid them. When somebody starts fighting the church that you attend, the church that you believe in, the church that you're following, the ministry that you're following, when they start fighting that he said mark them and avoid them.

Javier: Are you buying into this or do you still think this is weird?

Sarah Dejonghe: I felt like this is gonna make me sound so. Not, I don't wanna use words stupid 'cause I understand how I fell into it, but, I really believed, like, this is what I've been missing my whole life. Like, when I, I felt happy, I felt accepted. I felt like this is such a clean, good way to live. this is what I should have been doing all along. You know, it's. It really felt real. I stopped smoking, I stopped drinking. It was like an immediate change in my life. It felt real,

Javier: Yeah. And, and those are all positive things, right?

Sarah Dejonghe: right? Yes.

Speaker: IT'S THE PERFECT CULT

Javier: It's a perfect cult if you think about it. Right, I mean, how unique is that, that somebody has to get, is deployed somewhere or stationed somewhere? They're away from their friends. They're away from their family. Like you said, they, they respect authority, they have income and like it is just check, check, check, check, check. Right?

Sarah Dejonghe: And these people are often young. They're, at this point in their life where they're trying to figure out who they are. I mean, that's the age when you're, you're trying to piece together who you are and they, they come to you and you're like, here, here's this identity. This is, this is who you are. Just like I said, like I felt like, oh my gosh, this is who I am. This is who I'm supposed to be.

Speaker: And his experience is eerily familiar. ACT 2:STATS about NTCC before we go any further, a quick thing about the name NTCC. If you're in the uk, Jamaica or the Caribbean, you probably heard the name New Testament Church of God, and that's a completely different church. That's a mainstream. That's a Pentecostal denomination with over 7 million members worldwide, so no connection to NTCC whatsoever. In fact, that's exactly why NTCC had to change its name in the first place. The original name was just too close. So in 1984, they reincorporated the whole thing as New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Don't get me wrong. And TCC is still a pretty large religious sect. It has churches from the Philippines to Jamaica. So how does one man Michael Eckel keep control over all of his congregation? I'm not just gonna be a half bake, hypocritical, compromised Christian. I want the real thing. I want the whole enchilada, amen. Everything. you can hear the passion, pastor Eckel radiates. I wanna call it for what it is. Pray it through and be right with God. So what rules do NTCC members have to follow? If you want to understand how this organization really works, forget the sermons. Read the bylaws because it's posted on their website. The general board currently led by Michael Eckel is the final authority on scripture doctrine and theology Stay away from all those immoral idiots who do nothing but influence you for the bad and get around friends that are positive, moving forward, successful, doing good things, get around the right people, get the right God. And that's the thing I said to God when I gotta say, Lord, I don't want something phony. I don't wanna give my life to something that's not real. And I found something real. and lawsuits between believers are prohibited. and lawsuits between believers, well, that's prohibited because if you're defrauded, abused, wronged in any way, you can't go to court. You have to go to the board, the same board that has the final say over your employment, your credentials, your discipline. The people who may have harmed you may also be your judges. All property is held in the name of the organization, not the congregation, so if you're tithing for years, if your church built a building with your money, none of that belongs to you or your community. It belongs to them. And your pastor doesn't answer to you either. He's appointed by the executive board. Eckels position as chairman has no term limits. It ends when he decides it ends or when he dies. Nothing in the organization passes without his final approval and your membership? Well, that's contingent on. And your membership, well, that's contingent on your agreement with their doctrine, right? Because the moment you express any doubt, you've technically have breached the conditions of your membership, which also means that you can be removed from church managed housing, which means you could lose the place where you sleep, read all that together, and you don't have a church. You have a corporation where the members fund everything, own nothing, and can be removed. And can be removed the moment they stop complying.

Tracy Pelfrey: Go ahead and tell us about who you are and why you're here.

Andrew Shelton: Hey, my name is Andrew. I, attended MTCC from 2004, by around, um, I would say 2014. About 10 years like that.

Speaker: This is former Reen Andrew Shelton talking with Tracy EY on her YouTube channel called Stay Away From NTCC.

Andrew Shelton: I was actually in the Marine Corps. I was just fresh outta outta high school and it was April of 2004. when I came in, uh, to the fleet, I was just young and, you know, single and kinda naive at that time, you know what I'm saying? And then one Sunday I woke up from my barracks and decided I wanted to go to church, you know, which just, it was the moral thing to do, you know? I was, that's how I was raised up. So there was a chapel just around the corner, and I didn't have a car then. So I got up, grabbed my bottle, got dressed, went out the door, walked down the street, around the corner. It wasn't too far. And then as soon as it went down the corner, a car came up. And it was, um, a man, his name was Marvin. And, uh, he was a real nice person and he said he wanna invite me out to MTCC, which he gave me the card. And I looked down, I said, and I, and I thought to myself, I said, I have never had somebody invite me at the church. 'cause I grew up in church and I, like I said, I've never had somebody come up and say, I wanna invite you at the church. So it was kind of, it was kind of like a shocker to me. So I grabbed the card, I said, well, I'm going to chapel down the st down the street. I might, may come next week. He says, ma. My phone number's on the card, just gimme a call. but the next Sunday I called him up 'cause I was a little curious about it. So I called him up, I said, I wanna go to church. No, it was off base. He came and brought me to NTCC. It was a real small church outside of, camp Lejune.

Speaker: Andrew attended NTCC for a few months, but soon after that he deployed to the Middle East. The US was one year into the war with Iraq.

Andrew Shelton: During the, you know, the time I was in Iraq, I got hit by an IAD and I lost two Marines. They got, they died in my i me. And I almost lost my life too, so it kind of woke me up.

Speaker: After his deployment, Andrew returned to NTCC. He said he made a genuine connection with one of the pastors at camp, at the Camp Lajeune Church.

Andrew Shelton: I liked Pastor Jason, you know, and I learned a lot from him. Well, Patrick, Jason asked me, he said, he told me about it before and then he kind of like, he didn't say he bugged me, but he was kind of like, we have a home here. And he said, he kind of explained it to me. He says, you are more welcome to come. You know, it was just wasn't, it really wasn't for forceful.

Speaker: Pastor Jason was offering Andrew to stay at what NTCC calls a servant, A Serviceman's home. serviceman's home these true missionaries to the servicemen, to gis, and we have a Serviceman's home there. That's the voice of Roger Davis, the original founder of N-T-C-C-A service. A service, a Serviceman's Home is TCCs Recruitment Center established just outside of military bases. These homes are specifically designed to recruit young active duty military personnel. They're located right outside of military bases. These homes are specifically designed to recruit young active duty military personnel. Former members tell me that recruiters, lure service members to these locations By offering a hot home-cooked meal and Bible fellowship once there, the recruits say that they are subjected to intense love bombing. The most dedicated recruits claim that they are pressured to move into the serviceman's home, to live with a pastor and his wife. They are then expected to pay rent, which is only about $150 a month.

Tracy Pelfrey: Did you have to get it cleared on with, the base, uh, with the military to be able to go live there?

Andrew Shelton: No. No. No. Not really. I know when I saw living there, there was a lot of questions that rose up about. me living there. I know one of my staff NCOs came down. He had kind of like talked to me about me living down in town and then he said that, he was a little bit concerned of what I was doing. Yeah. Um, because he said that one time. 'cause at that time I didn't listen to him. 'cause I thought maybe, you know, you know, he had people on base that were not Christians. Right. I had people that just did not like Christians at all. So you thought it was the devil fighting? Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah. So, but anyways, he, he came down and he told me, he said he was concerned and he said that he knew of a Marine one time that did somebody similar. Now I don't know it was NTCC, but he said that he said, had a church that one time take all his money away and it really messed up his, uh, finances. And they just told, kind of told me like a scary story about a gi long time ago that dealt with a church one time. So that's what, that's, that's the only thing that, uh, kind of raised questions about me living downtown, but they never really. See, I couldn't do it. They said, as long as I'm there for formations on time, you know? But he says that I'm just concerned about you and if you got any problems, so let me know

Tracy Pelfrey: that guy. He was on it. I mean, it sounds like he cared about you and he

Andrew Shelton: Yeah, he was real nice. Nice.

Tracy Pelfrey: He saw the red flags before you did. Maybe.

Speaker: Andrew was too busy to see that NTCC had taken over his life.

Andrew Shelton: Our schedule on in Jacksonville, North Carolina, dinner was on Monday, and then Tuesday I believe was soul winning. And then Wednesday was church service at night. Then Friday was a Bible study. Then Saturday night was a church service. Then of course Sunday morning and Sunday night. So that was our schedule.

Speaker: Let's get back to Sarah De Young, who we heard from earlier. she told me another red flag happened when he came to dating.

Sarah Dejonghe: There was no dating, there was no, well, there was a courtship process, but, um.

Javier: the,

Sarah Dejonghe: I went through.

Javier: Can we go into it or, yeah.

Sarah Dejonghe: sure. You ly can

Javier: So no, there's no dating, but so far it sounds like a lot of control, which is now another red flag of if you're in a cult, because they, they control your daily life. They, you know, they control where you live,

Sarah Dejonghe: where you live, where how you dress,

Javier: but now you're saying they also control who you date or who

Sarah Dejonghe: who you can even talk to. So tell me about that. if you were single, you weren't allowed to talk to anybody else unless it was after a Sunday night church service. And it was in the fellowship hall. and all the men sat at one table. All the women sat at another long table. If. A man wanted to talk to a female. If he was interested in her, he would approach the head pastor Roger Davis, and he would say, sir, that was the, everybody called him, sir, could I please have permission to talk to sister so-and-so, and you had to do this in front of everybody. so if permission was granted, then that guy would approach the woman's table and say, sister, so and so, would you like to talk on the wall? That's what it was called, talking on the wall. So

Javier: Is this in front of the other person or is this in private?

Sarah Dejonghe: in front of everybody.

Javier: Oh my God. How embarrassing.

Sarah Dejonghe: Yes, absolutely.

Javier: now you painted this picture, you're in front of this large congregation, right? And you want to talk with somebody. It's usually the guy that makes the first move, I'm guessing. So the guy says, I want to, what was it that you said?

Sarah Dejonghe: on the wall. Would you like to talk on the wall?

Javier: I wanna talk on the wall with, with Sarah or whatever. Like how, then what happens?

Sarah Dejonghe: So if I agree, um, I stand up from the women's table and you can imagine how awful that would be. Walking up to a table full of all women who are like, uh, like, you know what? And then you gotta get up. And

Javier: This sounds like a, like a ne a Netflix like love is blind or type of type, like what happens if you say no or whatever.

Sarah Dejonghe: horrible. Like sometimes I said yes, just 'cause I didn't have the heart to say no. Like how awful is that? You

Javier: Wow.

Sarah Dejonghe: you would see them sometimes like slink outta there if a woman said no.

Javier: I'm cringing just thinking about it. Okay, so, so he says I wanna, I want to get on the wall. Is that was.

Sarah Dejonghe: Can we talk on the

Javier: talk on the wall was, yeah.

Sarah Dejonghe: Along the wall. It was just a little desk set up, you know. So you would sit in one and he would sit in the other and you would just talk for however long the fellowship lasted. And when the head guy Davis said, he would always say Goodnight folks, that was it. That was your warning. And he just got up and you left. And that was it till the next time.

Javier: Hi.

Speaker: MARRIED

Sarah Dejonghe: So I did that, um, and I got married to. A stranger virtually. Uh, we had probably spoken maybe 10 to 12 times in a year ever. There was no phone calls, there was no email, there was no dating. There was nothing. We had never even held hands. We had never been alone together, and we got married and December, 1999

Javier: were, you're attracted to him? Were you excited about it

Sarah Dejonghe: I could tell you a hundred percent. He's not my type. He never was.

Javier: But, uh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna like belabor this part because I know that it is personal to you and you rather would talk about the, the cult in general. But, but I mean, what, what did he talk to you about? Like when, when you were on the standing on the wall?

Speaker: YOUR JOB AS A WIFE

Sarah Dejonghe: Marriage and the ministry. Like what? Like that's really your whole role as a female is to be a pastor's wife. And so you talk about like what his calling is for God. Like is he gonna be a pastor or a Serviceman's home director because Serviceman's home directors, the pastor of like the military churches, we talked for rather a long time, uh, 10 to 12 times over, like a 10 month period was pretty long. I knew people that got married after just like a few weeks. Um, so, you know, I'm sure I asked him about his family and things like that too. Um, but you really don't know each other. Anybody can put on a mask for an hour.

Javier: Yeah. I mean, you don't know somebody you know like that, but so, so now you're in this marriage and once you're in a marriage, can you talk freely or, yeah. Okay. So that's when you really get to know each other, right. how long did that relationship last?

Sarah Dejonghe: oh my gosh, well, we divorced in 2019

Javier: Wow.

Speaker: and. Leaving that marriage was like leaving the cult all over again. Sarah is not the only one to claim coer of control when it came to her love life. By the way, Sarah was not the only one. Andrew also claims course of control when it came to his love life. he told Tracy Palfrey that right before his second deployment, he met a girl outside of the church. She started attending NTCC right around the same time he was sent back out to war.

Andrew Shelton: I got deployed. Um, but before I went I told her to just write me a letter, kind of keep in touch with her.

Speaker: six months later when he returned, the girl that he thought he was dating had moved on.

Tracy Pelfrey: Did she write to you?

Andrew Shelton: No, she never wrote to me. That's the thing. Um, I'm sorry to, to go back, but she never wrote me. And I know why. 'cause what, what happened was Reverend Gandy actually hooked him up, and he's done that before, and, and other times passed. He's known to do that, to hook people up. And the thing is, he waited for me to go on a deployment. He waited for me to go out. And then when I came back, and I thought it was kind of odd that there were just together so close. That's the thing about NT CCC is like they will hook people up that they see fit to their eyes. To their eyes. They think that they should be their

Tracy Pelfrey: eyes. That's a great

Andrew Shelton: point. Yeah, exactly. To their eyes, they think, well, this person should be with this person. This man should be with this woman. This woman should be this with this man. Even though they were never meant for each other, they would make that decision for them. There was one couple that the husband left the church, he left the organization. but the wife wanted to stay. This woman, she had two daughters. She was a single mom after she divorced,

Speaker: Andrew says that the pastor had other plans.

Andrew Shelton: He had in his mind, well, let me hook up Andrew with this woman with two little daughters. And he never asked me, do you wanna be with this woman? He never asked me, Hey, do you like her? He never, and he never, actually, I think nobody really knew that. What she went through a divorce till later on. But she was first off a divorce and then he, he decided he wanted to hook us up. Like I said, he never bothered ask me if I wanted to be with her. I was trying to avoid her. Oh, okay. I did not wanna be with a woman, with kids. Okay. I was trying to fight it. Okay. I was trying to fight, fight this situation.

Tracy Pelfrey: Right.

Andrew Shelton: The thing is, the situation got worse, he would kept pushing on her, her on me. Trying to try to like, you know, maybe if she can bother me, I will cave in and, you know, start dating her. Right. But the fact that, the weird thing is that I knew who the husband was. He was a nice person. And was, and also was, it was a weird,

Tracy Pelfrey: that had to

Andrew Shelton: be weird. Why wouldn't I date a woman with two daughters that I knew who the husband was?

Tracy Pelfrey: Right.

Andrew Shelton: We fellowship with each other. We, um, we sold one together. I know I sold one with him a couple times. We had barbecue grills together, you know, you know this and that. And then yeah, all of a sudden he leaves. Okay, there's your two, there's his two daughters you can raise up. I did not like that.

Tracy Pelfrey: Yeah.

Andrew Shelton: He really was made it to the goal that he would, that he was going to hook us up no matter what. in church, um, I'll be in one situation, one, one place and she, and she will walk over to me, but then look at me, but then I'll walk away and then she'll get closer, you know, and things like that. Like I'll go to one corner of the church, like kind of like get away from her. Then she'll fall kind of. Discretely follow me there. sometimes I would drive down the road and she would be in the parking lot waiting for me to drop by. Then she would come out, drive out behind me, and she's done that a couple times Me and my friend went to Walmart, And as I turned around and there she was.

Tracy Pelfrey: Oh no.

Andrew Shelton: I knew that when. It's like I knew that Gandy told her where I was gonna be. It was very just obvious. by the way, Gandy was one of the pastors. I came out and I said, Hey sister, I wanna talk to you very quick and this and that. And I talked to her in the parking lot. I said, just in case you think I, you know, was interested in you and this and that. I can't remember exactly what I said, but I said, just let you know I'm not really interested in you. I never will be. but she cried to the pastor. he got, he brought me in office and he chewed me out and he said, I don't like you attacking my church members.

Speaker: LEAVING So you may be wondering how exactly do you leave a church when you're under so much control? Here's Sarah, the young again.

Sarah Dejonghe: I left that group in 2002 when I told him I wanted to leave, which I fully expected him to stay, he had never told me he wanted to leave. Um, I thought he was gonna go tell on me because that's what spouses usually do. And then they remarry. but he said, no, I wanna leave too. And so we left.

Javier: That's interesting. So, and let's talk about that because usually another aspect of cults is that they make it very hard for you to leave. Can you just pick up and go.

Sarah Dejonghe: You're in a prison, but it's for your mind. Um, yes, you can walk out the door and they would say that all the time. Nobody's keeping you here. There's the door. Go you don't wanna be here. Um, but it's literally your whole life. You don't, you've let go of all your old friends. You really don't see your family. your most, a lot of people are living there on the pro, on the church's property. And then there's the fact that, um. You truly believe if you leave, you're going to hell. they drill it into your head. It's, it's something every single day. Church services, soul winning prayer meetings, classes, you know, special classes. It's nonstop. It's nonstop indoctrination.

Javier: And then once you leave, I would imagine that this community of people that you built, right? These are probably the only people you correspond with in the last few years. Now they're out, right? You can't,

Sarah Dejonghe: They should you.

Javier: yeah, you're shunned, right? Like you're. Right. And so now that, that's another thing that keeps people from leaving is because once you're out, you're out and you're alone. Right?

Sarah Dejonghe: lost everything.

Speaker: After we did this interview, Sarah told me that it's a stretch to say that she was forced to marry him. It was more like a high pressure tactic and coercive con and coercion. It was more like high pressure tactics on the young women to get married, ASAP to get married as soon as possible. When you're in a religious sect, especially one the size of NTCC, you have a hard time seeing the forest from the trees. At first you think, oh, it's just my church. That's the problem.

Andrew Shelton: back to Virginia, then I realized that wasn't just Gandy was the whole organization.

Tracy Pelfrey: We all come to that realization's. We came to that

Andrew Shelton: This woman, the hookups, the controlling, just the and all the, just the badgering. Yeah. And just this manipulation. It just drained me. It drained my spiritual life too.

Speaker: close with musictease we talked about the way that the church controlled their lives. Next time we're gonna talk about how they control their wallets.

Michael Kekel: Will I pay my time? Well, wonderful. The tithe belongs to the preacher. When you don't pray your tithe, you stole it from him.

Speaker: that's next time I'm pretend