Chain of Command part 4

Michael Kekel: preachers of today, they're afraid to tell the people, "Hey, you gotta pay tithe or go to hell." It's that simple. Yes, sir. 'Cause God said it, and if you don't, you're a God robber. That's right. You might as well put the gun to God's head and say, "I'm going to kill you if you don't give me all your money," 'cause you're taking God's tithe that belongs to Him

Javier: For some at NTCC... CEO Michael Kekel message was wearing thin. Former members say every sermon turned into a cash grab.

Arlen Bradeen: The reason I was leaving after being there 21 years was that the focus in, in my eyes, the focus had changed. Um, it went from small beginnings and the very personal touch and helping people, which they, they did. I have to give that to them. They helped me. But it went from that and it changed to, and I call it money and numbers. Um,

Javier: Arlen Bradeen wasn't just a member of NTCC. He was a pastor and a board member. And he was done.

Arlen Bradeen: So I was leaving, I was on my way out I just couldn't be part of what I saw.

Michael Kekel: And you know that you cut it a little bit, and as Pastor Davis used to say, you just tip God. "Well, I believe it's I should give as the Lord lays it on my heart." That's free will offerings. That's right. That's not tithing. That's right. 10% of gross income is God's right off the top. Like the first of the flock of their cattle, the first of the fruits of the garden, the first right off the top.

Arlen Bradeen: That became all the church was worried about

Michael Kekel: Do you give your pastor the first fruits of your garden? Do you give him the first fruits of your increase? Because when you take care of him, then God will take care of you. That's right. You're supposed to take care of your pastor. Man, the people ought to take care of their pastor. They ought to bring him veggies out of the garden. They ought to give him offerings, buy him Starbucks, take care of him. But nowadays it's, "Well, the preacher's in it just for the money." But you should take care of him. You want him there when you need counseling. You want him there when you're in the hospital. You want him there when you need somebody to pray, and you want him to teach you the Word and to study and get all that, but you don't wanna do anything to take care of him, you loser. That's right.

Javier: While this may come across as comical to some. It was very real to the members inside the church. They weren't just pressured to give a portion of their salary... they were commanded. You don't have a committed mind. You need to get up out of your grave- Yeah ... and take care of the man that takes care of you. Yeah. Instead of sitting there resenting it and chewing your cud like a cow, man up, woman up and do what God said you should do.

Arlen Bradeen: the Sunday morning service, you had to let the supervisor know, um, the, uh, attendance and the offering. it became a money and numbers game, and I, I was just like, um, Yeah. I w- I was done. Greg Shepard was a minister at NTCC.

Greg Shepard: The harshness in the gospel over the pulpit. They would be harsh and be pointing at people, children, teenagers, young adults, adults, middle-aged adults, and older people. Greg said he was guilty of it too.

Javier: Um,

Greg Shepard: They would say such harsh things over the pulpit that, number two, they had no real sense of a godly love.

Javier: Pastor Bradeen had a different vision for the church... one that would follow the teachings of Jesus. And I had been denied on some, some ideas of helping, like, the homeless. I pa- pastored the church in St. Louis for a while, and I had ideas about helping homeless and, and, uh, lower income people, and I was, like, laughed at from the, from, uh, the superior, the leader there. Which is a very Christian

Arlen Bradeen: And, and I was, for many years, I was, uh, considered a board member, so I was kinda in an inner, in the inner circle, um, of New Testament. Um, I wish the best for them. I just couldn't be part of what they were promoting anymore.

Javier: And he wasn't alone. Dozens of other members were making secret plans to break off from NTCC. They wanted to form a new church. One that wasn't obsessed with tithing or control. In December of 2003, they finally made their move. A bunch of members got up in the middle of a service and walked out. It was basically a mutiny.

Introvo: I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND... Stories about real people pretending to be someone else.

Javier: One insubordination minister to brake the chain of command.

Sarah Dejonghe: Hugh Virgo stood up in the middle of church service, I don't know who was preaching that night. And he accused the pastor of being racist and of compromising and using the N word and all these things. And what he had quietly been doing for the past year though, was gathering people that were unsatisfied with the way things were going.

Javier: Former member, Greg Shepard was there that day.

Greg Shepard: 100 to 200 of them were in the congregation. And, and, and, and they were all sitting there. Everybody's sitting wherever they wanna sit. I was sitting up towards the left. And he was sitting on the front row, and he stood up. Reverend Keckel might have said something kind of... I don't know. I don't even remember what he said, but he stood up and said something about being prejudiced, and then he said what he said, and then he walked out.

Javier: And I gotta i-imagine a lot of people weren't expecting this, right? at when he

Greg Shepard: not all.

Javier: in the room where you could like hear people's stomach rumble or?

Greg Shepard: the whole place went silent. It was during the preaching of the service and he stood up and blasted him,

Speaker: //SOUND DESIGN"Greg

Shepard: This man was in the church, the main church in Washington, in the Bible college, and there was a service that went on. And Reverend Keckel said something wrong during the service, and he stood up during the service, and he said, "You're prejudiced."

Greg Shepard: And he had a whole bunch of things. But he stood up and rebuked him and said, "You're a prejudiced," and he walked out. And then Reverend Keckel just walked away from the pulpit, went back to his seat, grabbed some water, and then a bunch of people started crying in the congregation

Javier: This was a rare public rebuke of the leadership at NTCC. About 30 ministers broke ranks and walked out. The official reason for the split was about race and descrimination. Although that is still debated. What was the makeup of, uh, the people that, that were in both of these congregations? Like was it pretty racially diverse or was

Sarah Dejonghe: very racially diverse and, um,

Javier: like the military?

Sarah Dejonghe: like the military.

Speaker: Unofficially... the split was about power and control.

Javier: And that week, 30 of the ministers coincided and left. At that moment, all of them left. Reverend Davis, uh, cried, and Reverend Dennis said to him, "All you have to do is go up to the congregation and say you're sorry." And then he did the crying Jimmy Swaggart thing, cried in the service and this, that, and the other, but it was too late. Uh, once the brother-in-law of Reverend Dennis and then all 30 ministers left.

Speaker: VO: The breaking point at New Testiment Christian Church unfolded like an orchestrated coup and triggered a mass defection.

Javier: Among them, a new leader emerged. A haitian immigrant and Amy Veteran known as Pastor Rony Denis.

Greg Shepard: We loved him. We believed in everything he did. And he would secretly do things that Reverend Davis, he would do something, but he would do completely different. He had the love of Christ at the time.

Javier: After the incident, NTCC leadership turned to Denis and asked him...

Arlen Bradeen: so you wanna be the pastor, huh?" And he was talking about over the whole organization. And Reverend said, Davis said, "No, I don't." He always wanted it to be proper. He always wanted God to be involved. He always wanted, uh, the Holy Spirit and the holiness, meaning a separation from the world. He always preached Christ. He always did the right thing in Woodbrook. Uh, and, and it might not have been the right time for the split to happen, but it happened And he had such an aura about him spiritually that people followed it. It was respectable.

Rony Denis: I love you

Javier: Rony Denis stepped right into that power vacuum. He became the supreme commander of the defectors. And people followed him. All the way from Washington state across the country to Hinesville, Georgia. There he started a new church. He called it the House of Prayer Christian Church.

Speaker: And like all things, it was good in the beginning.

Greg Shepard: The respect of God and what God was doing as far as, uh, people getting saved and things happening with his ministry, it happened.

Javier: He calles it the House of Prayer because The name references the biblical story where Jesus rebukes the money changers inside the temple courts, declaring, 'My house is to be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves.' Pastor Rony Denis would like you to believe the break from NTCC wasn't planned. That he founded this new church, the House of Prayer, to meet the moment. But state records show that Rony Denis establish the new church a year prior, well before the 2003 schism from the New Testament Christian Church (NTCC) took place. ... suggesting that this was his plan all along. Denis was secretly laying the legal and organizational groundwork for his own church while still serving as a high-ranking leader within NTCC.

Gladys Jordan: have you ever read Dennis's letter, the departure letter from NTTC?

Javier: No, um, This is Gladys Jordan...who joined house of prayer in 2003, right when the church initially split from NTCC.

Gladys Jordan: Okay, I'm gonna send you that. Let me read you a part that just stuck out to me. It says, "The Lord has provided a place where we all can pray with organized prayer meetings, where collected prayer won't be ridiculed or devalued as unnecessary, but a place where it will be given the same priority and emphasis that was given to it by the early church.

Javier: The letter from Rony Denis dated February 26, 2004, officially invited the defectors to join him. He spun a tale of a once-great church that had lost its soul to greed, superficial politics, and a toxic culture of fear where members were terrified of going to hell if they ever dared to step out of line. Denis played the hero. He promised his followers a fresh start with the House of Prayer, vowing to ditch the corporate environment in favor of an authentic spiritual revival.

Speaker: <high-tension music>VO: But spoilter alert. That didn't last very long. If you can imagine, House of Prayer would turn out to be far more controlling and corrput than anyone could have imagined.

Rony Denis: Say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

Fbi: FBI search warrant. Come out with your hands up. Hands. Come out with your hands up.

Speaker: News clIP: Eight people connected to the House of Prayer Christian Churches of America have been indicted. house and pray on ground. I can... Lord, Ken, can you hear me?

Javier: The House of Prayer members left because of the problems with NTCC, but in a way it almost became worse, right?

Arlen Bradeen: yeah. It was out of the frying pan and into the fire. Arlen Bradeen was a high-level minister and pastor at the House of Prayer Christian Church.

Speaker: WHAT DID RONNIE DENIS PROMISE YOU?Javier

Leiva: when you left NTCC, what did Ronnie Dennis promise you? What did you think you were

Arlen Bradeen: Ronnie Dennis, I don't believe... Now, I really believe this, nobody really knew who he was except maybe his wife. Uh, nobody really knew who he was. He mainly worked on church members that he knew he could turn first. the the man really knew, I, I believe it was, uh, power from the devil. Uh, he really knew who he could control,

Javier: But what was his appeal? Like, why would, why would people follow this guy if he's so bad?

Arlen Bradeen: Well, well, he was extremely charismatic. Um, he, he knew how to use the Bible to manipulate. Um, and people, the devil only counterfeits what is true. You've never seen a counterfeit $30 bill because there's no real one. it got to the place where you couldn't have ever been saved without him helping you. Um And and, that makes sense, right? Because like your analogy of the counterfeit is, good because if, if he's playing the role of the pastor and he plays it well, and he's also very manipulative, he, he could, he could get past a bunch of people, right?

Speaker: Arlen

Bradeen: Yes.

Javier: I Greg Shepard says that Reverand Rony Denis eventually let became everything he critized about NTCC.

Greg Shepard: And I had already been trained under Reverend Dennis, and I actually witnessed what a service was like that I agreed with, And then two or three months later, the power,

Speaker: The power went to his head.

Greg Shepard: One sin came two, two sins became three. When you go down that financial road or kicking people out, doing things that God is not sanctioning, it eventually will roll like a ball and it'll roll you over.

Arlen Bradeen: Yes.

Javier: I

Arlen Bradeen: A- and now I don't know if you're familiar with the scripture in, in second Corinthians where Paul says that Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light

Rony Denis: Draw the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me. And then he said right here, "Say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

Arlen Bradeen: and then he says, "So is it any wonder that his ministers can transform themselves into a messenger of righteousness?" according to the Bible, there are actually, uh, people that are full-blown with Satan, but they're able to make themselves look like the right thing

Rony Denis: Makaya. Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah

Arlen Bradeen: Part of his draw was, and I believe this, this wasn't from God, I belie- God can do this, but I believe his power was from Satan, that he could actually talk to people about their past and it was in a way that- He was ministering to them to help them. But really what he was doing he was collecting ... And he said this, he said he has a file on everybody he's met.

Javier: he's ever met. Hmm. And-

Arlen Bradeen: and that was a big part of his draw because it seemed like he, through the, through the spirit of God, it seemed like he knew you and could minister to you and help

Javier: was a big part of his draw because it drew him in. he was filled with the spirit of God, it seemed like he knew you. And his ministry was helping people. But on the flip side, could destroy

Arlen Bradeen: Oh, yes, because, um, he would, he would, he would gain things on you.

False Confessionsarlen Bradeen: So spiritually, Dennis would gain control. And what he would do,

Arlen Bradeen: he would get people to confess that he would get people to confess that, they did things they did not do. I'm a pastor, and let's say some lady called me with a problem. and I'm trying to help her. But her problem is, you know, with her husband. So let's say the lady said, my husband, you know, never pleases me. We get together. We're intimate. But "I'm never satisfied." Okay. Dennis could turn that conversation into adultery. And then he would go back to the pastor and he'd say, so she talked to you about this and this. So did you have any thoughts? Did you have any bad thoughts about her? Did you have any sexual thoughts about her? You know, and he would, he, this guy would go at you and manipulate conversations. I know this is a podcast and it's hard to distinguish between voices and keep track of who is who. We just heard from Pastor Arlen Bradeen.

Speaker: We've also heard from Greg Shepard. Greg said that most leadership was guilty of forcing false confessions. Including pastor Bradeen. Here's Greg talking about the time Rony Denis sent Bradeen to his house to get him to confess to a horrific crime.

Greg Shepard: Reverend Dennis told him to tell me that I was a child molester and, uh, he didn't want me here anymore. That I molested my child. Eh. And then when he said that to me, came to my house, said that to me, Tina's in the background. You know, this is the love of my life. She knows me. She knows how I would fall in front of a train- I'd stop anybody from hurting my boy. It's my only boy. It's my only son. It's, it's almost everything I live for other than for letting people

Speaker: Greg

Shepard: I made the decision after sixteen years to leave it, and it took me that long. Am, am I regretful of it? No. I'm a, I'm a machine now. I, I, I, I'm a successful person after I left years ago. I'm a successful person. I'm a millionaire now, and I still share the gospel. I was saved under the organization.

Greg Shepard: What can I say, brother? I'm on my way to heaven. That's all I care about,

Javier: But why would Like, what, what do you think is their motivation for,

Greg Shepard: Because, and I'm gonna tell you why, because he di- he wanted to cut off what I call loose ends. We're going to go into more details into this story so remember this moment because it will become inportant in our next episode. But essentually, Greg Shepard says that he and his wife were getting in the way of what Rony Denis wanted. We'd call him out on it. So he ran me off, Today, both Arlen Bradeen and Greg Shepard our out of House of Prayer. But the damage is done.

Talked To Bradeengreg Shepard: Let me say it this way. I thank God he got me out. I thank God that Brady and Ken came. You know, I talked to Reverend Brady. And I don't know what I said to him. And I've never really said nothing to

Greg Shepard: the guy. and who knows? Maybe when I talk to him again, say, hey, bro, why did you come and say I molested my son? I know what he's going to say. Reverend Dennis told me to say it. I asked Bradeen about this... about trying to make Greg confess to assaulting his son.

Arlen Bradeen: one- person I know that you know, confessed to, to molesting uh, children, uh, and he didn't, he didn't do it. There's, there's...

Javier: do it.

Greg Rumors Revisitedjavier Leiva: Was that, was that Greg? Um, 'cause I heard about a guy named

Arlen Bradeen: No. no, Greg, um... no, he didn't, he didn't, um... I don't think he, he confessed anything.

Javier: Greg said that he was forced to confess about something horrible like abusing his son or something like that. You don't know anything about that?

Arlen Bradeen: Y- yes, I, I do vaguely remember that.

Greg Shepard: So why did he dodge the question? Maybe because it's easier to pretend it never happened. Pretend that you are not capable of such a thing. But talking to Greg, it seems he understands. Because he was there. He knew the enviroment and the pressure they were in. But, you know.

Owning Past Harshnessgreg Shepard: And do I hold

Greg Shepard: do I – no. Do I ever – am I going to hold any of them accountable? Brother, I did the same things that they did. I need to apologize to people the same.

Javier: You accused, you accused people like, things they didn't do?

Greg Shepard: Yes. Yes. I was harsh over the pulpit. Monkey see, monkey do, right, brother? there wasn't love in my preaching and it was kind of harsh. I did love people. I did pray for them. But I did things ignorantly.

Speaker: I heard stories of false confessions like this over and over again. And I'm not here to determine whether any of these incidents happened or not. I wasn't there. There are no police reports. But you have to ask yourself, if these things really did happen, and Reverend Denis knew about these issues, why didn't he report them to the police? So either it did happen andhe covered it up, or he's playing psychological warfare against his congregation. If it was an isolated incident, I would question the vercacity of these claims. Get them to confess, in writing or recorded audio and then threatening to expose them if they didn't fall in line. Pastor Bradeen told me that Reverend Rony Denis even targeted him.

Ex Wife Manipulation Storyarlen Bradeen: Dennis knew how to absolutely brainwash and it happened to my ex-wife-

Arlen Bradeen: I'm about to play you a tape demonstrating a clear example of this. This is a recorded phone call between Arlen Bradeen and his wife ex-Chris.

Chris Bradeen: Arlen, this is Chris. You need to stop. I am not you- I'm, I'm a woman. I'm 56 years old. I'm not here against my will. I'm not brainwashed. This is the holiness church you always said you wanted, the church of your dreams, right?

Arlen Bradeen: No, honey, honey-

Chris Bradeen: You've done that, and so you just need to stop, Arlen.

Arlen Bradeen: At this point in time, Arlen Bradeen had left the House of prayer. Let me play you more of this tape. Because this is going to be played, I'm, I'm not gonna put myself out there and try-

Chris Bradeen: No, that means that you believe it. You said you're not

Arlen Bradeen: afraid. It's

Chris Bradeen: putting

Arlen Bradeen: yourself out there. I, I'm not afr- You

Chris Bradeen: do. You do. I'm

Arlen Bradeen: not afraid. That's what you know what you believe. I'm not afraid of Ronnie Dennis, okay? He's been manipulating our marriage. We were better off before we came here.

Chris Bradeen: I know, sir.

Arlen Bradeen: Because this man has manipulated- He helped our marriage ... our marriage.

Chris Bradeen: He helped us in ways-

Arlen Bradeen: But with my ex-wife, he made her believe that she molested her daughter, which would be my stepdaughter. He made her believe that she molested her biological daughter. And then after dealing with that, made her believe that she introduced her stepdaughter to me in a sexual manner. And then we had this threesome, you know, for years. She made my ex, he made my ex-wife believe that she had sex with all of the board members of New Testament Christian Church. Now, New Te- New Testament Christian Church had some issues, um, but she never did that And there are, there are people in there that, you know, he, he made her claim that she had relation with R.W. Davis, uh, uh, J.H. people in there that, uh, he, he made her that he had our government agents, um, uh, getting told- And she would just, she would just admit to this? Like even though you think that she didn't do any other stuff? Absolutely., Here is audio of Rony Denis blasting Arlen Bradeen about the alleged sexual abuse.

Speaker: And I will stand before a court, and I will testify of everything that he's done, that you've done, Brady. The things that you've confessed to, there's still physical evidence of it, and it's undeniable, and it will put you rony denis (3): in- You believe, Brady. rony denis (3): There's this test, DNA, and it found it. Do you understand? You stood there. I can't believe from that van, from Reverend Davis, from all that took place in The Testament. Brady, did you not--

Rony Denis: You both are child molesters, and Mr. uh, Bradin in Woodsbrook are what? You're a pervert. You're a homosexual. You're a child molester. Reverend Davis is also, and God's gonna judge you and judge all of us, all of you, Bradin. You confessed to those things. We have you on record the whole time you've been in the house of prayer. I have papers of all that. I have papers on you, Bradin, from your own handwriting, okay?

Speaker: You're a hypocrite. We have you saying you're with Satan. You're a child of the devil. It's not about the sexuality. You've been messed up all your life, all the way. rony denis (3): Are you listening, Brady? Yes, yes, Ronnie, I'm listening. Hello? I'm listening. Hello?

Javier: It seems the House of prayer uses sex as a weapon. Much like the Pentecostal traidition, the House of Prayer views sexual intimacy as a gift from God that is strictly reserved for a heterosexual marriage. They have strict dress codes. Women don't cut their hair, wear no makeup, wear long skirts instead of pants... all to prevent provoking sexual desire. So accusing an members (or anyone critical of them) of being sinful in any sexual way, discredits them. And often times, an accusation is not enough to tarnish their reputation. They needed to confess. Again, if this is true. Why didn't Reverend Denis ever turn Bradeen over to the police? Was there any, like, law enforcement involved in any of this, or these were just confessions?

Arlen Bradeen: These were just confessions. and so Dennis did all this manipulation, and this is just my family, but he did it to everybody. He, He, did it to, to everybody. I I

Javier: heard of that. I've heard that, that there were other people that confessed to different things they didn't Here's probably the best example of this... and I hesitated playing this clip due to the vivid sexual descriptions. So I'll do my best to be as least descriptive as possible but still getting the point across.

Ramos: Christians don't do what we did and then lie about it

Arlen Bradeen: That's fine, then I didn't do it.

Ramos: Sir, no, that's not true. Look. Oh, what about that time that you, I, and Johnson Rodriguez were in the bed, and he was sodomi- No, no, the time we were on the floor. That's even better, and I was sitting on him. The young man, who's name I will leave out, is trying to convince Bradeen that he, and another man had a threesome with him. Bradeen seems stunned. What about that time, sir? What about that time? That didn't happen. You really, really enjoyed it. Sir, that's not true. You really enjoyed it, and the fact that you keep denying it hurts me the most, sir. I mean- Nonsense ... man, I really did everything I could to please you Why would someone confess to doing something they didn't do. Again, you have to remind yourself of the culture at this church. They are modest and ultra conservative. Homosexuality is a sin.

Arlen Bradeen: at a, uh, noon prayer meeting, uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't confess to, um, being a homosexual in front of everybody and confess that all the stuff my w- ex had, my now ex had said, uh, was true. I wouldn't con- I, I said, "None of it is true."

Ramos: Arleen Bradeen denies all of these accusations.

Javier: and I could have done it an easy way. He asked, "What, uh, what about this stuff your wife's been saying?" All I would've had to say was, "Yes, sir, it's all true."

Arlen Bradeen: Uh,

Javier: and I would've... He would've backed off, left me alone. I would still be there in a quarter m- uh, three-quarter million dollar southern mansion,

Arlen Bradeen: uh,

Javier: driving my uh, QX80 or whatever. Uh, I I left a lot, but I told him, "No, sir, that's a lie. It's never happened." And, um, he blew up. He said, "Get out of this church. Get out of here." And, you know, some of my, uh, people that I was their pastor all of a sudden became my enemies, and it, it was kinda like a a gang of folks stood there and made sure I left.

Locked Out And Divorce Filingvo: So when I got back home about six o'clock, this is May 18th, all the doors were locked. All the shades were down and, um, I couldn't get in. My key didn't work. I think he had someone change the locks,

Javier: And this is your house,

Arlen Bradeen: And all of, yeah, all of my, all of my belongings were packed into boxes at the front door.

Speaker: Arlen Bradeen was homeless with no where to go.

Arlen Bradeen: I said, "God, in order to stay here, I have to deny you, and I have to buy into this lie." And I, I, uh, I, I understood that if I confessed to stuff I hadn't done, I would be denying Christ, turning my back on Christ.

Speaker: I

Loved My Wifearlen Bradeen: And I had put up with Dennis' shenanigans because I love my wife. We were married 30 years,

Arlen Bradeen: and we had been through a lot together, and we loved each other, and he was... I believe he was jealous of our relationship. Um, anyone, anyone in the church would tell you the relationship between my wife and I, a lot of people loved it. We, we loved God and we loved each other. I lived as a sinner. I wasn't in church. I, I was a, acid rock follower, AC/DC and, and the whole crew, and Kiss and, and all of that, and I got saved. So I, I lived a, a lifestyle back in the day. I was, I was a, a good lieutenant for the devil. Well, when I got saved, th- that's, that, uh, the sexuality, the, the, the parties, the drugs, all of that, all of that was gone. Today, he is free. And he and other former members have made it their mission to protest the church and try to encourage current members to leave.

Bradeen Resolutionchris Bradeen: So are you Reverend Bradine now?

Arlen Bradeen: Oh, yes, I'm free.

Chris Bradeen: You're, so you're Reverend Bradine?

Speaker: Yes. I, I'm Pastor, Pastor Bradine. I'm set free from the cult influence. House of Prayer is a c-, okay? And you guys, you guys will find out. Hopefully, you'll be on the right side when you find out.

Arlen Bradeen: it ended with me leaving because, um, it's almost eight years, Here you have a situation where inside the church members are accusing each other of deviant things... but once they're out, they have to rekon with what they did.

Regretsjavier Leiva: And, you know, and I'm sure even you have, like, regrets too, right? Like, everybody has regrets being there. you know, and, and you probably did some things you're not so proud of. I mean, i- is that right? Like, is that fair to say?

Arlen Bradeen: I regret, uh, backing Dennis up. I mean, for some time, I thought that he was real. So my biggest regret is, is, um, letting people know that, that he is real. Here's Greg Sheppard again who was forced to confess to abusing his son.

Speaker: Regret

Apologies And Fragmentationjavier Leiva: And so like, how do You talk to somebody who's left the church and, and, and, and did it the right way, but also caused harm for people while they were in? Like what do you think about that? 'Cause that's complicated, Right, I went through, I went through a lot

Greg Shepard: I had to apologize to all New Jersey because of it. I-I, it, it horri-horrifically left a stain in my life. I've sent out Facebooks and said, "I'm apologizing. I didn't love you properly." I've apo-apologized to quite a few

Javier: time. It was the most horrific time in my life. What

Greg Shepard: because I've people...

Javier: about?

Greg Shepard: Um, most regretful, you know, I'm a, a military, uh, 21-year-old kid. I was pastoring a church, brother, at 23, associate pastor at 23.

Javier: These false confessions are bewildering. As an outsider, it's so hard to understand. Why would anyone do this. But we know false confessions are a real thing. Remember the Netflix doc, Making a murderer? Everyone believes a confession. But everyone has a breaking point. Sometimes it's in your best interest to confess. To release the pressure. To yell mercy.

Speaker: Boiling frog analogyVO: We've spent the last 30 minutes or so introducing you to the House of Prayer... a spin off of NTCC. And right away, you should have noticed a big shift. NTCC has it's problems. It's a high-control group and should be highly scrutinized. But House of Prayer is on another level. But with both churches, how do the members not realize what is plain as day to all of us?

Javier: Ever heard of the boiling frog analogy? If you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will immediately perceive the extreme danger and jump out to save itself. Now, this analogy is not biologically realistically... The frog will probably jump out anyway...but just go with it. Psychologically speaking, If you place a frog in a pot of comfortable, room temperature water and then turn the heat up very slowly, the frog won't notice the gradual change in temperature. Eventually, the water reaches a boil, and the frog is cooked to death before it realizes it's too late. And that's exactly the feeling I get when talking to these former members of both of these organizations.

Teasevo: Next time of PRETEND... We're going to meet a woman named Gladys and her desperate struggle to save her son.

Desperate Mom: I know you hear me. Cj. Cj, I know you love you. C. Love. Go help you get out day. Come home, cj. You know in there. There's nothing in there. Cj. Love you, son. I love you. Cj. Cj. Love you, cj. C. Home, son, I'm here. You can walk outta there with nothing. Leave that car behind, leave your car behind nothing. And we got you. Cj. We got you. So C, when you come home, cj, we love you.