Chain of Command part 7

Javier: This is Javier with the podcast Pretend.

Gladys Jordan: hi, Javier. How are you?

Speaker: This is Gladys Jordan, who you heard from in the previous episode. I called her up just to get her advice on my visit to the House of Prayer Church.

Javier: What do you think? Do you think it's a bad idea for me to go or?

Gladys Jordan: No, you need to go. You need to go.

Javier: What do you think? Uh, 'cause usually you get recruited to go, and, uh, we

Gladys Jordan: That's okay. No, all you're gonna do is say, "Hey, I just heard, I heard good things and I heard bad things, and I just wanna see for myself." And they're gonna put on a show for you. Just be on the lookout. They're gonna put big old show for you. How did you hear from them? Just say, "Hey, it's been all over the news, and, uh, you know, I know there's good churches and bad churches, but hey, I just wanted to come see for myself." But just aware that they might put on a show and, uh, they're not gonna... They might bring the kids out to sing to you. Sarah was telling me about that, but, um, oh, they're gonna love bomb you. You know that.

Javier: so, so they'll, they'll be nice to us, right?

Gladys Jordan: Oh, yes, just be careful and, um, 'cause they might think that you... 'cause they are a little bit paranoid. They might you're undercover, But just be aware that it's a cult, you know? You just...

Javier: Yeah.

Gladys Jordan: just be on the lookout 'cause as soon as they see a new car pull in, they're gonna come. They're probably gonna come to your window. Make sure that you start recording before they see you.

Introspeaker: In today's episode, I'm going to visit one of the House of Prayer churches and attend service just to experience it for myself. Yes, the same church that was raided by the FBI

Speaker: fBI search warrant. Come out with your hands up. Hands. Come out with your hands up. Well, one of five churches that was raided by the FBI to be specific. This raid happened back in 2022. Agents seized computers, records, and cash, but they didn't arrest anyone. There was no doubt that Ronnie Dennis knew that the feds were after him. He was a sitting duck. after the raid, state agencies started pooling GI funding from the church's seminaries. Again, this was in 2022. 2023 rolled around, still no arrests. 2004-- 2024 came and went, zip, nada Zilch, nada. 2025 was almost over and nothing. Nothing until the fall of 2025. Law enforcement, law enforcement fanned across Georgia and Florida to arrest Law enforcement fanned across Georgia and Florida to arrest the church's leadership. A tactical special response team breached it... Law enforcement fanned out across Georgia and Florida to arrest the church leadership. A tactical special response team breached the reinforced front door of Ronnie, of Ronnie Dennis's 11,000 square foot mansion They grabbed him, confirmed his identity with the fingerprint scanner, and took him into custody. I'm Javier Leiva, and this is Pretend: stories about real people pretending to be someone else

Act Onespeaker: they unsealed a 26-count indictment against Ronnie Dennis and his seven associates. We're talking about conspiracy to commit wire fraud, bank fraud, tax crimes, all part of a two... All part of a $23.5 million scheme, they say. Five of them, five of his associates ma- five of his co-conspirators, five of his co-conspirators bonded out at 50 grand, but not Ronnie Dennis.

Speaker: He and his top lieutenant stayed locked up A federal fraud case is hitting close to home tonight. Eight people connected to the House The FBI even did a press conference where they invited current and former members to come forward.

The Fbi: The House of Prayer operators exploited veterans and their families by accessing VA funds for their own enrichment. Your voice matters. Reporting your experiences may help us uncover, uh, the scope of harm and hold all those responsible accountable. Um, it takes exceptional courage to come forward, and we recognize that, and the FBI and our partners will do everything we can to protect you in that endeavor.

Speaker: So Ronnie Dennis is behind bars awaiting trial. Game over, right? Is this the end of the House of Prayer? No. According to former members, Ronnie Dennis is still pulling the strings from behind bars Alexander Schmitka.

Greg Shepard: Listen, brother. He's in prison right now, and he's telling them people to bring him, uh, what do you call that prison food? What do you call it? Canteen. Yeah, fill his canteen or whatever.

Gladys Jordan: I found out that Dennis is still communicating with Smika using a inmate's cell phone, which I told the FBI agent that I talked to. I've been talking...

Javier: uh, uh, he snuck in a

Gladys Jordan: Yeah, yes.

Speaker: Alexander Schmitka is the CEO on paper, and with Ronnie Dennis behind bars, it appears like he is running the House of Prayer empire out of Fayetteville, North Carolina, a short hour away from where I live. So I decided to take a road trip, but I didn't wanna go alone. So I thought, "Who would want to come with me to a cult service?" I couldn't think of anyone other than my friend, Jared Smith, the host of the Heliocentric YouTube channel.

Javier And Jared Visit Hopccvo: Niner-niner, we got a cult inbound. Cult inbound confirmed. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to a very spicy, dark, esoteric episode of Atheist Church Audit. My name is Jared. I'm an atheist. And this morning, I went to a church. Duh.

Speaker: If you haven't watched Jared's Atheist Church audits on YouTube, you are missing out. He's a former Christian. Jared is a former Christian turned atheist,

Jared Smith: When I became Christian at 13, when I like, you know, it wasn't just being dragged to church every Sunday. I, I became a Christian, um, and became very zealous very quickly. I quickly became like more spiritually inclined than either of my parents. Um, like I had moments where, you know, I would wag my finger at my dad for, uh, you know, not taking his faith seriously enough, which looking back is audacious and insane, I started becoming an atheist the day that I became a Christian, right? Like my Christianity was built on really, really, really hoping that atheism and nihilism wasn't true. And so my 10-year stint within Christianity, my decade of ministry and street preaching and, uh, altar calls and worship leading, all of that was, I think, secretly fueled by the terror of imagining a universe without God, and that horrified me.

Speaker: Jared is also into heavy metal, Christian heavy metal

Jared Smith: I'm a one-man metal band. and then in between writing my first album and releasing my first album, I actually became an atheist, and I had this weird moment of realization where it was like, "I don't believe that any of this is true anymore, but I'm still really passionate about these stories." Um, and so I, you know, was releasing Christian music as an atheist. Uh, and I somehow felt okay about that, and, uh, it kind of rings

Javier: true. But it, but it's, it, this is like a really weird Venn diagram, right?

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause

Javier: you have, like, Christian music, heavy metal-

Jared Smith: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: atheist, and so

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Speaker: Jared was the perfect person to attend the House of Prayer service with me. You see, every Sunday, Jared visits a new church and reports on it. But here's the deal. Jared doesn't like to research the churches ahead of time. He likes to walk in cold. So when I told him about coming along with me, he said, "I would love to, but under one condition. You can't tell me anything about this church." And I said, "Deal." Sunday morning came around, and when we got into his car, we... Sunday morning came around, we got into his car and headed down to Fayetteville, North Carolina

Javier: Yeah. So, wow. So you know nothing about- I mean, you know very little about what we're gonna do today, right?

Jared Smith: Not a lick. No. Where, where the hell are you taking me, Javier?

Introducing Hopccjavier Leiva: Well, it's called The House of Prayer Christian Church. So HOPCC for short. And th- they are a military-

Jared Smith: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, so this is hitting me right now. I, I might actually know a tiny bit about this church accidentally.

Javier: Really? Like, like this for real?

Fbi Raid Flashbacksjared Smith: Well, so you telling me that the FBI raided this place, this is giving me flashbacks. Okay. So I've investigated a different house of prayer. Uh, it's a church called the United House of Prayer- Right

Jared Smith: for All People.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: Which is, um-

Javier: B- Daddy.

Jared Smith: Yes. The Sweet Daddy Cult.

Javier: Sweet Daddy Cult.

Speaker: , Sweet, sweet, sweet

Sweet Daddy Mix-upjavier Leiva: I was telling my wife about this.

Jared Smith: So I made that video, and in that video I made the mistake of including a clip of- That is- ... the United House of Prayer- ... for All People being raided by the FBI. Oh. And then several people commented and said, "Hey," like, "you need to delete that from the video. That's not- That's not- ... our church ... right. That's a different church." So it might be this church.

Javier: Yeah. No, it's totally... The

Jared Smith: church- Holy crap.

Javier: Whoa ... the church that we're going to today was raided by the FBI.

Jared Smith: Dude.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: That's insane.

Speaker: That reaction right there, that's why I picked Jared. And honestly, who else would go to church with me? Not after my track record

Jared Smith: So I literally had to go into my YouTube editor and, like, delete that- Wow ... news segment-

Javier: Wow

Jared Smith: from the video about the Sweet Daddy Cult.

Javier: Isn't that the worst? That's wild. That YouTube doesn't let you delete videos?

Jared Smith: No, it d- it, well, it lets

Javier: you- Or edit or- It

Jared Smith: does let you ... just se- sections. Yeah ... yeah. Um, I'm, I'm super glad that it got to do that 'cause that was, like, super negligent on my part to not double-check- Well- that it was the same ...

Javier: what's really funny about this is that we're going to The House of Prayer Christian Church.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Speaker: So Many Houses of PrayerJavier Leiva: But just a couple miles down the road, th- there's, uh, your, the

Jared Smith: church that- The United House of Prayer for All People.

Javier: Right. And then isn't there, like, an IHOP too? Yeah. Like, what? Like, the International House of Pancakes, but, uh-

Jared Smith: The International House of Prayer.

Speaker: Yes, three different House of Prayer churches all within a few miles of each other, but only one of them was raided by the FBI. After hour--

Javier: So here's something that you should expect, 'cause I know you wanna know very little- Yeah ... about this experience, which I think is totally cool. I already told you that I think we're relatively safe. Like, I don't think anybody is going to, uh, physically assault us- Right ... or I don't think we're going to be, like, turned away. In fact, uh, former members told me that to anticipate being love, love bombed, But another thing you should, uh, anticipate is that the moment we pull, pull into the parking lot-

Gps: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: we are going to be surrounded- Mm by, by members, 'cause they're not anticipating us, but they're, they're gonna think that it's really weird that we're just pulling up.

Jared Smith: Yeah. I'm- ... wildly intrigued. all I know about this place is that it's, uh, they, they draw a lot from the military. Yeah. That's the only thing you've told me.

Javier: That's, that's right. And really, the military's a side character here. It's just, um- Sure ... it's, it's what makes it like an affinity, um, in, in my opinion, an affinity con, right? Like, or, like their recruitment strategy.

Speaker: after a long hour of driving, we finally pulled up to the church.

Javier: So I think we're coming... Yeah, that's it right there. Shit, it's a packed house Still standing

Speaker: When we come back from the break, you'll hear what happened inside the church, and we meet the new man in charge. And you'll find out if the man... And you'll find out that the man that we know as Ronnie... And you'll find out th- And you'll find out that the man that we know as Ronnie Dennis was living a lie this whole time.

Rony Reacts To The Raidrony Denis: All he has to do is sit up to believe in the media, whatever his prosecutor, whatever, just cover people's heart and mind.

Speaker: You have to understand, his former members told me that they didn't realize he was running a scheme with their GI funds, at least not while they were under his control

Rony Denis: You guys in the Bible college, you have to pray. It started in prayer and now it's free. That way you guys can show them it wasn't about money. If it was money, we will sell chicken and Kool-Aid outside. Do you guys understand?

Javier: You guys, even in the Bible college, there was quite a bit of air around you guys, right?

Speaker: Yes, sir.

Rony Denis: And, and Christ was led to the slaughter. He opened not His mouth, and this is preaching the Bible.

Javier: But you guys, you want to go to heaven, don't you?

Rony Denis: You guys have to let the end in Philadelphia.

Javier: Are you guys listening tonight?

Rony Denis: It has to end to a Baptist, okay?

Javier: It cannot end in, uh... It has to end in period. Are you guys listening? Put out of... Is this House of Prayer or I got the wrong church House of Prayer, sir.

Speaker: You can just hear the paranoia setting in. He didn't know who to trust.

Rony Denis: Right? '

Javier: Cause I know they're recording, they're listening. You guys, they trapping questions.

Rony Denis: This, that's not, uh, uh, uh, what do you call it? They already, they have a thing they call it... No, we're dealing with, uh, what you call it. This is not a hindering just now.

Javier: The truth is right there. So what are you saying? I'm saying humility before honor. Hey, this is good. Do you understand? Everything

Speaker: He began speaking in tongue

Javier: I wouldn't change. Sir. I wouldn't Oh, God, you like this. Hey. Sir. You di-di-- You like this. Hey, you like this . If we wanted money, we--

Rony Denis: You guys,

Javier: you pastors, I am your helper. What do you do? You teach. I teach in the Bible. You guys would have charged them for breaking the doors you made no claims.

Rony Denis: The sympathizing of, of Pilate out there, those are this, this. You guys gotta get out of that. Do you understand? The tweeting, the this, the that.

Javier: You, you can go to any Bible college you want to. You don't have to go to this one. like it or you love

Speaker: it? Love it, sir. I, I don't know what to say, but it just, just brings that life. It's like, it's like in-

Rony Denis: The doctrine, the teaching. Each time, that's what charity does.

Javier: I'm preparing you guys for a whole lot of miracles. I will do things that you guys never even thought of seeing. I am here. Christ was led as a sheep to the slaughter.

Rony Denis: Well, how can you say that? Because I know what I do now. But you guys do not accept deliverance. Deliverance means it's a cheap way to just hide in some six to eight and have delusion. No. God, I know the sin that I've committed. I know this. I know...

Javier: What is happening to the church is not judgment, people. All right? But what is happening right now, God wants this to happen, I am here. Christ was led as a sheep to the slaughter.

Rony Denis: and he does push him to go against. And let me say I, I... Brother Brian and all my brothers, all these, you all, this, this, uh, brother, all of them, uh, Brother Keith, all of them. Uh, anyhow, but I'll tell you what. When I was in... Do you have anybody with testimony? Because I'm gonna show. Tonight, you know what I was gonna do when I was in? I was gonna have you guys go outside. I promised that before I... When God does his part, I will have you guys stand outside 'cause people think it's jet stream. It is not just a jet stream, and

Javier: I will have it right to neighbor house and pray on ground. I can... Lord, Ken, can you hear me?

Rony Denis: Once I

Speaker: When I think of the House of Prayer, I can't help but think about Jonestown, Jim Jones and the Te- Jim Jones and the People's Temple. Former members say that Ronnie Dennis was studying Jim Jones right down to the birds that he owned. Jim Jones had two macaws, a blue and, a blue and gold, and a scarlet. Ronnie Dennis, he had two macaws too, a blue and gold and a scarlet They also say that Ronnie wanted to revitalize Jonestown. They also say that R- they also say that Ronnie wanted to revitalize Jonestown They also say that Ronnie Dennis wanted to revitalize Jonestown itself in Guyana. It's rumored that he wanted to send scouts to the site of the mass suicide. I don't have any evidence of this, but it sure is a creepy side plot, isn't it? Ex-House of Men-- ex-House of Prayer, ex-House of Prayer members refer to him as Jimmy for that very reason. Look, if Ronnie Dennis was planning a mass suicide, he had three years in between the raids. He had three years in between the church raids and his arrest to pull it off, and he didn't. But you never know, right? It seems like he was controlling his followers to jump when he said jump. But could he get them to drink the proverbi-- but could he get them to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid? But could he get them to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid or Flavor Aid to be technical? Or Flavor Aid technically Look, if Dennis was... Look, if Ronnie Dennis was planning a mass suicide, he had three years in between the church raids and his arrest to pull it off, and he didn't. But you just never know, right? It seems like he was con- but you just never know. It seems like he was conditioning his followers to jump when he said jump, but could he get them to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid or Flavor Aid, technically? Draw the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me. And then he said right here, " I am ready to stand. I am standing. There's a judgment that has ever DETENTION HEARING////ACT

Three: ARRESTS////Speaker: He speaks in gibberish and all they could say is, "Yes, sir."

Speaker: So what did federal prosecutors... So what did federal prosecutors have against Ronnie Dennis? What exactly did they find during those... So what exactly did federal prosecutors have against Ronnie Dennis? What exactly did they find during those... What exactly did they find during those church raids?

Arlen Bradeen: I don't know if you've heard, but he stole that identity back in 1983.

Speaker: Right out of the gate, federal prosecutors dropped a bombshell. According to them, the man in front of the judge is not who he claims to be. He is not Ronnie Dennis. Ronnie Dennis is an alias. He stole that-- They say he stole someone's identity. They say he stole someone else's identity and lived under it for forty-two years. The prosecution admitted that the government has no idea who the defendant really is. And if they're right, the man that we all believe was Ronnie Dennis is a complete unknown. Is a complete unknown I've asked former members if they remember any stories about his past, and no one really knows for sure. He's a mystery. He told his congregation that he grew up in Haiti as a child of privilege, chauffeured and... He told some of his congregation that he grew up in Haiti as a child of privilege, chauffeured to private schools. But then he told others a much darker story. But then he told others a much darker story. He claims that his father was an evil man Rosa Lafontaine? Rosa Lafontaine. Rosa Lafontaine, a leader Tonton Macou- Tonton Macoute? Okay. This is gonna be hard. He claimed his father was an evil man, Roger Lafontant, a leader in the Tonton Macoute All right, let's try that again. Oh, boy. He claims his father was an evil man. Roja, Roja, Roja. He claimed his father was an evil man, Roja LaFontan, the leader of the Tonton Macoute. Macoute. He claimed his father was an evil man. Roger Roger Lafontant. Roger? Raja? Raja Lafontant. He claimed his father was an evil man. Raja Lafontant, the l- a leader in the Tonton Macaute, Macaute . A leader in the Tonton Macaute, the death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duva- Duvalier Duvalier. The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier Duvalier, Duvalier? Duval, Duvalier, Duvalier, Duvalier? The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier dict-- The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier... Duvalier, Duva-lier? Duvalier? Duvalier? Duvalier? Duvalier. The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier dic-- The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier di-dictatorship. Duvalier dic-dictatorship. Fuck. Duvalier. Okay, Duvalier the death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier dictatorship The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier, Duvalier. The death squad that terrorized Haiti under the Duvalier dictatorship. And for anyone who's not familiar with Haitian and, and for anyone who's not familiar with Haitian history, this story was just meant to inspire fear among his followers. He told them that God spoke to him personally, waking him up, ordering him to flee Haiti before an- waking him up and ordering him to flee Haiti before a deadly uprising. So, ooh. Do you need to go out? Oh my goodness. Oh, goodness. Two big parts, man For anyone not familiar with Haitian history, this story was meant to inspire fear among his followers. He told them that God personally spoke to him, waking him up and ordering him to flee Haiti before a deadly uprising. So if his name is not Ronnie Dennis, then who the hell is he? According to military records, the man that we know as Ronnie Dennis enlisted and served in the army for six years under his stolen identity. At one point, he even was stationed in South Korea. If he's not Ronnie Dennis, then whose identity did he steal? It turns out that he hijacked the name, date... It turns out that he hijacked the name, date of birth, and Social Security number from a real Donny Hunt It turns out that he hijacked the name, the date of birth, and the Social Security number of the real Ronnie Dennis, a Haitian refugee who fled Haiti in 1980 In 1983, the real Ronnie Dennis reported his immigration papers stolen. He died a few years later in 1989. I tried to reach the wife of the real Ronnie Dennis to see if she knew anything about the man who stoled her husband's identity, and I just haven't been able to get ahold of her. FNU/LNUSpeaker: So if he's not really Ronnie Dennis, then what should we call him?

Arlen Bradeen: So I think the feds call him, FNU, first name unknown.

Javier: third calling that, uh, that, that there'd be a first day on

Arlen Bradeen: LNU, that's what they call it.

Speaker: Arlen Bradin is not kidding. That's literally what they call him in federal court. F-N-U-L... F-N-U-L-N-U. F-N-U-L-N-U. To this day, no one has any idea what his real name is The Financial Shell Game &

The Luxury Fleetspeaker: So what else did prosecutors find?

Speaker: $5.7 million in unreported income. They say he moved it through 180 bank accounts, all opened under his followers' names to hide it. Prosecutors revealed an $800,000 check written directly-- Prosecutors also revealed an $800,000 check written directly to Ronnie Dennis from the Phoebe Ruth Foundation. Prosecutors also found an $800,000 check written directly to Ronnie Dennis from the Ruth... Ah. Prosecutors also found an $800,000 check written directly to Ronnie Dennis from the Phoebe Ruth Foundation. Phoebe Ruth? If you recall, Phoebe Ruth is actually Julie Bowles. That's the woman that he-- That's the woman that was living with Dennis, the woman who was stolen-- The woman who was allegedly stolen from Adam Bowles That's the woman living with Ronnie Dennis, who's, who've, whom former members describe as his second wife. That's the woman living with Ronnie Dennis, whom former members describe as his second life. No. That's the w- that's the woman living with Ronnie Dennis, whom former members describe as his second wife. That's the woman living with Ronnie Dennis, whom, hmm That's a woman living with Ronnie Dennis, whom former members describe as his second wife. That's the woman living with Ronnie Dennis, whom former members describe as his second wife. The wife that he stole from Adam Bowles, remember that? They say he used ei-- they say he used that eight hundred thousand dollars to buy a multimillion-dollar mansion in West Palm Beach, Florida They say he used that $800,000 to buy multimillion-dollar mansions in West Palm Beach, Florida, and Martinez, Georgia. And the prosecutors trace stolen VA funds-- And the prosecutors trace stolen VA education funds to two Rolls-Royce, two Bentleys, and an Infiniti for his co-defendant The Infamous "Hooch"

Drivespeaker: The government laid out how co-defendant Anthony Aloans provided Ronnie Dennis with daily operational reports. In a folder which was called Hooch, inside, inside investigator... Inside this folder, Hooch, investigators found driver's license, Social Security cards of about sixty people. Prosecutors say that these were the ones used to commit the mortgage fraud

Witness Intimidationspeaker: The prosecution really pushed to keep him behind bars by showing just how vindictive he is towards witnesses. They laid out how members who fled were put on a traitor's list and stalked online.

Speaker: Ronnie Dennis didn't even spare his own family. He targeted his soon-to-be ex-wife, Marjorie, and, and even his own daughter. They had photos circulating around the church so their congregation could mock them. Witnesses told the government that they were terrified that... Witnesses even told the government that they were terrified that Ronnie Dennis would try to have them killed. One witness, one wi- one witness even recalled an encounter so frightening that she urinated on herself. One complaint alleged that Ronnie Dennis taught his congregation. One alleged... One complaint alleged that Ronnie Dennis taught his congregation that if he ordered them to eat or drink something poisonous, they should obey him. Only God could stop him. The evidence against Ronnie Dennis was staggering. This whole... His whole world must have been crumbling around him. And just as prosecutors were about to play audio of Ronnie Dennis, he pulled the ultimate fail-safe. He pulled the ultimate fail-safe in case He pulled the ultimate fail-safe in case of emergency break glass move Ronnie Dennis suddenly interrupted her and said, "I'm feeling sick. I'm feeling sick." They eventually reconvened the The judge was forced to stop the proceedings. They eventually reconvened a few days later, but the transcript of that session was not... But the transcript of that court hearing is not on the... But the transcript of that court hearing is not on the court website detention hearingSpeaker: The judge ultimately ruled that Ronnie Dennis posed a serious danger to the community and was a flight risk. He remains, he remains behind bars awaiting trial. And I'm gonna keep an eye on this case and keep reporting on Patreon and Pretend Plus on Apple Podcasts. And when we come back from the When we come back from the break, I am going to take you inside the House of Prayer Church to see what's changed. When we come back from the break, I am going to take you inside the House of Prayer Church to see what's changed since their leader got locked up ///AD BREAK///JAVIER &

Jared Con'tspeaker: the House of Prayer Church in Fayetteville, North Carolina is a small, unassuming church. It's like every church you drive past in America. But you'd never find this place by accident. It is tucked into a neighbor-- It is tucked into a neighborhood, and you have to be recruited to even know it's there

Jared: Oh, buddy, I don't like this already. We are in the boonies

Javier: Yeah.

Speaker: And to a passerby without any context, there's absolutely nothing unusual about it. I mean, it looks like any other... I mean, it looks like a church, right? I mean, it looks like a church. The traditional white-sided building with a classic white steeple.

Javier: Yeah, that's it right there. Shit, it's a packed house

Speaker: But the sign out front tells you everything you need to know.

Jared: The, uh, billboard at the church says, "Still standing."

Javier: Yep, and that will be meaningful later

Speaker: Remember, my friend Jared still doesn't know the details of what we're about to experience. Knowing me, he knows that... But knowing me, he knows this is not going to be a regular church. But knowing me, he knows he's not going to just... But knowing me, he knows he's not gonna go to just a regular church.

Jared: That just says, "Hey, we've had scandal."

Javier: Yep, and we're still standing. Well,

Jared: I guess so.

Speaker: Not the warm, welcoming sign you'd expect. To neighbors who all watched the FBI raid the building, this sign didn't come across as, "Hey, worship here." It was more like, "This is my fortress. Come at me, bruh

Javier: You ready to do

Jared: this? Let's see. I guess. Hey, good morning Good morning Yes, sir.

Speaker: Just like Gladys warned us, our car was immediately swarmed with curious church members. You know who invited you out? No, we just heard about it online and thought we'd come check it out. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thank you. Appreciate you. I have to say, the love bombing left much to be desired. I mean, everyone we, I mean, everyone we talked to was super nice, don't get me wrong, but the last time I visited a cult, I got hugs from everyone. To be fair, we did stand out. No doubt about that. Everyone was giving us the hairy eyeball. We walked in and sat down next to a man, former military from the state of Washington. He was incredibly nice, but he really did fit the bill. Military, check. Washington State, where NTCC is based, check. Now he lives in Fayetteville and goes to the House of Prayer Church, check People started filing in and church began. People started filing in and the church service finally begun. I thought maybe we'd start out with some opening prayers, musical praise, maybe a little worship. Church room tone: In the Bible it says, uh, to, to give tithe, which is one tenth of, uh, all your income. But nope. The minister opened up the service with a pledge for tithing. He-- I mean, cut to the chase. I couldn't believe it. This is the House of Prayer. It was supposed to be focused on Jesus, on love, on salvation, not tithing. I thought that's why these people left NTCC. Church room tone: The example of love is, is shown by what God did in the fact that He gave. That's right. Right? You, you, you can't prove your love for something without giving to it, right? By the way, we are just thirty seconds into this service. Church room tone: But they come to church, and they're like, "I don't know. The church steals all your money. Church room tone: The church is not in, in business as a profit-making institution. I hope not. Some, I'm sure some are. But, uh, uh, uh, uh, but the church, just like every other, uh, financial institution, needs to be able to support itself, uh, and it's supported by the giving of those in the congregation. At one point, Jared leaned over and tells me, "This is the worst preaching I've ever seen." And Jared goes to church, and Jared goes to different churches every Sunday. "This is the worst service I've ever seen." And after the f- and after the quote, "free will offering," Alexander Schmidtke, the man who replaced, the man who replaced Ronnie Dennis, steps up to the pulpit. Schmidtke is currently listed as the CEO of House of Prayer Christian Churches of America. Schmidtke is currently listed as the CEO of the House of Prayer Christian Churches Church room tone: We're here, amen? Come on, man. Serving God, amen. It's not the most popular thing to serve God today. People will hate you for it. And without skipping a beat, Schmidtka followed the tithing with a message of defiance. He didn't specifically memph-- He didn't specif- He didn't specif- He didn't specifically mention his former boss by name or the raid at the church, but we all knew what he was talking about. Music: The church cannot be broken. Music: Come on, Music: sir. The true church of God is never gonna be broke. Music: They can write what they want. Yes, sir. They can send who they want here. Come on, sir. They can do whatever they want. There is a true and a living God- Yes, sir ... that loves those that are committed to Him. Yes, sir. Music: Though all the lies are coming, though all the, uh, persecution is coming, though anything can come, the Christian has victory. Jared and I were here to observe. When they clapped, we clapped. When they stood, we stood. When they prayed, we bowed our heads. We drew the line when it came to praying in tongue. We drew the line when it came to praying in tongues. We drew the line when it came to praying in tongue. I respect-- I respectfully looked ahead while church members raised their hands speaking in non-words The guy in front of me was bent over his pew and looked really distressed. Our goal was not to draw attention or to, our goal was not to draw attention or to disrupt. Our goal was not to draw attention or disrupt service. We just wanted to witness it ourselves. See how this, see how this organization is operating without its legal. See how this... Our goal was not to draw attention or to disrupt the service. We just wanted to witness. Our goal was not to draw attention or to disrupt the service. We just wanted to witness with our own eyes to see how this organization is operating without its leader SERMONChurch room tone: All people have a free will to make their own decisions, amen? Church room tone: A lot of people say, "Oh, I'm worried about being brainwashed." Nobody's brainwashed. Wow. Yes, sir. Nobody ever believed in brainwashing. Yes, sir. Can someone brainwash you? You dumping on her? No, sir. Church room tone: They did not take away my church services. We're still here seeking after the true and the living God. It's a true place that you can dwell, and you can have victory. And no matter what comes your way, you'll be strong and of good courage wherever. There's always those that will try to test those. Amen? Church room tone: Um, change. What are those two things right there? He stopped and pointed in our direction, and I thought, "Holy crap, what's about to go down? Is he gonna call us out? If he does, how should we react? If he does, how should we react? I'm not gonna lie about who I am and why I'm here." This is the only time that I got genuinely nervous. Church room tone: Are those two things right there? Church room tone: Doors, right? That's a door, right? See the door, they're not locked. People can leave whenever they wanna leave. Music: Yes, sir. Oh, thank God. He was pointing at the doors, not us. Church room tone: Amen? Yes, sir. In fact, we like when people leave. Yes, sir. 'Cause it's less trouble.

Jared: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Speaker: Church room tone: We're not begging people to be here.

Jared: Yes, sir.

Speaker: Church room tone: This is a church, you're not being begged to be here. Church room tone: Amen. There's, there's, there's like 10,000 churches in Fayetteville you can go to. You can feel the tension in the room. The raids happened years ago, but it's still fresh on their minds He spent, Church room tone: Though you have the right to bear arms, we don't, we don't take up arms. Amen. We, we take up, we lift our arms in prayer. Amen. That's what we do. That's why a lot of people trouble us, because we're not gonna fight back. Mm-hmm. Church room tone: Pretty tough, right? Music: Yeah. True. Church room tone: And, and, and so we're gonna fight back on our knees. It's over. We're gonna fight by k- keep coming to church. Oh, yes. It doesn't matter what people say. No sir. It doesn't matter what anybody says. he spent a lot of time shaking off the reputation that they're not a cult. Was this a show for us, the two strangers who are visiting? Or do they just talk about this all the time? Church room tone: I like when people that are cheating around on their wives call the church a cult. Yes, sir. Church room tone: I like when the people that aren't doing right, doing evil, all manner of wickedness, they call the people that believe in God a cult. Yes, sir. Come on, sir. Ronnie Dennis's name never was mentioned, not once. But it seems that like this part of the sermon was meant for anyone questioning Ronnie Dennis's spiritual authority Church room tone: They called Jesus a devil. Read your Bible. Anyone that ever lived for God, they said this. They called Paul a seditioner. This guy is strange doctrine. Church room tone: There's a lot of, lot of shady business going on. Church room tone: Yeah. Where's the FBI to re- in- investigate that? Yes. They're not gonna. Right? I couldn't help but look around at the children sitting in the pews, and I wondered what their future would be like. I wondered, I wondered if they'll ever get out of this place. I wondered about the men and the women nodding their heads and laughing at every joke. Church room tone: They eat like squirrels, they eat like slugs, they do whatever. They, they, they wrestle each other naked in the mud. Church room tone: They're different. They need to be investigated. That wasn't even funny, but they laughed anyway. But this morning, the service felt like it was aimed at only two people sitting in the pews, me and Jared. Church room tone: Welcome to my church. We're normal people. Dude, I read about you online. Good, I hope you did. Amen. I read all that, if you believe it, you're stupid. Amen. Yes, sir. That's right. Church room tone: If you believe it, you're dumb.

End Of Sermonspeaker: After the service, all the men kept asking us how we found the church

Javier: We've heard things about this church, and we wanted to check it out for ourselves.

Speaker: Then Alexander Schmidtke approached us. He gave me a fist bump Church room tone: Allergies. I don't wanna spread nothing. I think I came anyway. Good to have you all today. Thank you. Thank

Javier: you for having us.

Speaker: Church room tone: Oh, anytime.

Javier: Yeah, appreciate We've been talking about it. Finally found a Sunday to go. Good. Come around here.

Speaker: Church room tone: Yeah, I'm sure you heard about us.

Javier: Yeah, well we just wanted to see it for ourselves.

Speaker: Church room tone: Yeah.

Javier: You know? Like you hear the chatter and-

Speaker: Church room tone: Yeah. That's, that's good. Thank you for giving us that dignity, you know, respect, you know?

Javier: Why? Do you have like a lot of trouble with people coming here?

Speaker: Church room tone: No Church room tone: They don't, they just believe what they read. They just believe it, because they wanna believe it. Church room tone: Well, was it true or a lie what you read?

Javier: What you seen? Uh- What you seen? This seemed like just a regular-

Speaker: Church room tone: Huh?

Javier: This seemed just like a regular service to me.

Speaker: And it was a regular service, pretty unremarkable really, especially for a Pentecostal church. Church room tone: Javier- All right, nice meeting you ... and Jared. Yes, sir. God bless y'all. And just like that, we got in our cars and left Remember, Jared intentionally did not want to know anything about this church. So we pulled over at a park so I can give him a download-- so I can give him the download on what he just experienced, and I started at the beginning. Jared and I intentionally did not... Remember, Jared in--

Javier: Hey. Have a good one, sir. Take care, man.

Jared: All right. Have a good one, sir Jesus fucking

Javier: Christ.

Jared: Get me the fuck out of

Javier: here. So that has to be traumatizing for you.

Jared: No, not at all.

Javier: No? Nah. Like, you don't get some sort of PTSD from being- Nah. Really? Like, you've completely separated yourself?

Speaker: Church room tone: Totally untraced. Yeah. Yeah? Totally

Javier: untraced. But it's so funny because, like, I'm so ill-prepared, uh, because I, uh, I didn't even think about bringing a Bible, and you brought one. Yeah. So, like, you play the role and, like, you s- you kinda know the songs and- I,

Jared: I started to... You know, it's like I never... You can leave the church, but the church don't leave you.

Javier: That's right.

Jared: You know, I, um, I, I get this world. I'm sure that's- I don't quite get this flavor of it, 'cause I'm not a military man.

Javier: Right, right.

Jared: Um-

Javier: It was interesting. I, I think if, uh, if we had no idea what they were about, which you have no idea what they're about, you probably would've just thought, "Eh, that's not worth a heliocentric, uh-

Jared: No, I am so glad you took me here ...

Javier: YouTube video."

Speaker: Music: Really? Stop signing to

Jared: the right. That was one of the most batshit insane culty services- um, because I kind of, um I, I, I know that, like, the initial sales pitch- At the stop sign, turn right onto Route 11 ... um, is usually much tamer than, you know, the, the skeletons in the closet.

Pastor: Right.

Jared: And the, like, initial introductory sales pitch here- 119, turn right onto Route 2929 ... was already really, really bad, which signifies to me that what's happening behind the curtain-

Javier: Right

Jared: is fucking disastrous.

Javier: So the veneer is not even that great.

Jared: No, the veneer was bad. I, I have so many fucking comments.

Javier: And, and, and it kept cracking through, didn't it? Like, the, the, the tension, the, the s- the drama behind

Jared: it. Dude.

Javier: Like, you could tell at certain points, I mean, uh, we were like, we were the s- elephant in the room, and he was oriented to talk about the FBI raid, and would stop himself, right?

Jared: Those, those poor people. Um-

Javier: I know. I feel bad. And you know, it, it... I was looking around and it didn't seem performative. You know,

Jared: like- No, no, no.

Javier: Like, there were people that were, like, crying. Uh, it felt real to them, I'm sure.

Speaker: Church room tone: You know?

Javier: I mean, they're all military. You could just imagine the, the, all those guys that were walking around, you could just imagine them wearing fatigues.

Speaker: phone: Yeah.

Javier: Right? But they, and said they were wearing black coats

Speaker: parkSpeaker: Remember, Jared intentionally did not want to know anything about this church. So we pulled over at a park so I can give him a download on what he just experienced. I started at the very beginning.

Javier: Let me give you a little history about

Speaker: church- All

Javier: ...'cause the House of

Speaker: Prayer- Hit me

Javier: Christian Church, it was a result of a schism from a, another church called NTCC, okay?

Speaker: I told him everything, the tithing, meeting your wife at the wall, the revolt within the church, Ronnie Dennis' rise to power. I told him about the false confessions, the GI Bill fraud accusations, the GI Bill fraud accusations, the stolen identity. I told him everything

Love Bombingjavier Leiva: I'm actually surprised the lack of love bombing. think we

Javier: it. Well, that's- It just wasn't way I was expecting it. 'Cause when think of love bomb, and I've been love bombed Mm-hmm ... when I went to the Faith. I mean, they literally-

Jared Smith: It

Javier: sounds- ... showering with love. Yeah. But these a of dudes, right? we ne- we never got approached by a woman, right? And we got love bombed the best way that a bunch of dudes could love bomb.

Jared Smith: Yeah. I mean- ... you know, love bombing looks different in, in different circles. the effective modus operandi is not to grab them by the shoulders and shake them- Right ... and tell them, "Hey, you're in a cult. You're in a cult." Um, it's to try to understand them. And yet, it's... This time around, it feels difficult for me because it's like everyone was so on guard that it's difficult to feel like I, I was able to see their humanity. Yeah. Like, everyone felt so closed off and, you know, even the, the love bombing that we got was a little s- a little stern or a little passive. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, a, a nice handshake and, "Ah, come back and see us."

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: But you know, it, it's like- Yeah. And I didn't get to talk to any of the women either. Like- Wow ... you know? Like, like, that was weird to me.

Javier: Yeah.

Speaker: Um-

Javier: Like we were approach-- We were surrounded the whole time we were there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Javier: Like, we actually had to like- uh, like w- force our way through like-

Speaker: Right

Javier: like a, like a posse of guys, you know? Yes. Uh, but we never once, uh, not even made eye con-

Speaker: I told him everything, the tithing, meeting your wife at the wall, the revolt within the church, Ronnie Dennis' rise to power. I told him about the false confessions, the GI Bill fraud accusations, the GI Bill fraud accusations, the stolen identity. I told him everything

Javier: And it was pretty obvious that we were like the elephants in the room. Like- but the women never did. The women never looked at

Jared Smith: us.

Speaker: at

Javier: us. And, uh, how many times did they have to say, "We are not cult"?

Jared Smith: It was brought up way many times for, for comfort. Like, it was comedic. Oh. Like, it was probably five times that he referenced the FBI or, you know, cult allegations or, you know, uh, "These people, they always say that we're doing this and that," and like, "The door's right there."

Javier: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: was insane. By the way, I've written to House of Prayer for comment and no response. The Cult Today (Who is running HOPCC now?) With Ronnie Dennis and his top henchmen in federal custody awaiting trial, the church has-- The church really hasn't disbanded. With Ronnie Dennis and his top henchmen in federal court awaiting trial... No. With Ronnie Dennis and his top henchmen in federal custody awaiting trial, the church hasn't really disbanded. It seems to be limping along. And according to Gladys Jordan, who spoke with the FBI, Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Al... Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Al... Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Alexander Schmiedke. Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with... Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Alex... Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Alexander Schmiedke and directing the church from behind bars using a smuggled cell. Using a sm-- According to, according to, according to Travis-- No. According-- Ah. According to Gladys Jordan, who spoke with the FBI, Ronnie Dennis is still communicating with Alex Schmiedke and directing the church from behind bars using smuggled inmate cell phones. Using a smuggled inmate cell phone. No. According to Gladys Jordan, who spoke with the FBI, Dennis-- Ronnie Dennis is still directing the church from behind bars using a smuggled inmate cell phone. Instead of waking up Instead of waking up and, instead of waking up, instead of the cloud lifting and waking up, the remaining members of the House of Prayer believe that Ronnie Dennis is a persecuted martyr. They actively They are actively out in the streets recruiting new members to raise money. Former members say to pay Ronnie Dennis' legal defense bills. After all, he did hire a big-time attorney who represented Donald Trump during the Georgia election fraud scandal. Who represented Donald Trump during the Georg... After all, he did hire a big-time attorney who represented Donald Trump during the, during the Georgia election fraud tri-- ugh. After all, he did hire a big-time attorney who represented Donald Trump during the Georgia election fraud scandal. But former members like Gladys Jordan are not giving up. I know... She warns anyone who's even remotely curious about this church to stay away

Warninggladys Jordan: Javier, every time I see any of them inviting anybody, I roll up on them.

Gladys Jordan: I, I saw Huff, and I'm like, "What are you doing inviting..." I said, "Sir, you're a soldier?" The person that he was inviting. And, um, I said, "You know they're gonna... The FBI raided them, and, uh, they're gonna steal your money. They're gonna steal your VA benefits." And my husband's like, "Tell the truth, Huff. Tell the truth that, that... And don't lie, that the FBI raided you guys." And he just shook his head yes, and he left the, the, the, he left the Walmart. I don't care.

Speaker: CIRCLE

Back To Ntccspeaker: there's no denying it. After everything that has happened at the House of Prayer Christian Church, NTCC is sitting pretty.

Speaker: They're like, "You see? At least we're not that bad." Here's NTCC CEO Michael Kekele rubbing it in I don't have a harem. I'm the husband of one wife, unlike Ronnie baby, who had more than one in his group in Hinesville. Come on now. And my, if you saw the news and all the things that came down with that group, maybe, and you may remember if you were around in 2002. May I be the first to tell you, I told you so There were those who doubted and there were those who followed and believed a lie as this hypocrite cult leader led them into hell. And I tried to tell them. I tried to tell a lot of people who did not listen to what I was saying. What were you saying? That man is plastic. He's a hypocrite. He's a phony, a liar, and I don't want to be around him. That's what I told people. Can I get a witness? That's a cult leader. there's no denying it. After everything that has happened at the House of Prayer Christian Church, NTCC is sitting pretty. They're like, "You see? At least we're not that bad." Here's NTCC CEO Michael Kekele rubbing it in We still haven't heard back from NTCC regarding our coverage, and it's a shame too because I really would have liked to hear how they would have responded to some of these allegations. But even though they haven't responded directly, but even though they haven't responded directly to me, it seems like they're talking about my podcast indirectly during their services. Here's Tanya Keckle, the daughter of NTCC founder and the wife of CEO Michael Keckle.

Jared: So that Stressed by unfortunate circumstances. There is no want in heaven,

Speaker: Am I the stressful, unfortunate circumstances? Huh What about the accusations of tithing and extracting money from their congregation?

Javier: No one's coming after you and checking your paycheck. Amen. No one's coming

Speaker: After you and looking at your tax returns. That's not the way it works. What do you mean? It sounds like you have ultimate freedom. I can come and go. I can give. I can do all of this stuff without, without, uh, somebody breathing down my neck. That's right. Why? Because serving God should be of your own free will always The reality is NTCC and House of Prayer are still around. They're still recruiting, but that doesn't seem... But there seem-- But there doesn't seem to be as many butts on the pews like there used to be. Maybe they're in, maybe they're in a decline, maybe not. But for young men and women who enlist in the service But for the young men and women who enlist in the service, but for the young men and women who enlist in the service, they should be aware what they're signing into. They should be aware what they're getting into. Like Sarah DeYoung told me, hopefully this podcast series will spare these young people from wasting the best years of their lives For some, this experience has made their... For some, this experience has made them... For some, this experience have m- For some, this experience have... For some, this experience has made them lose their faith. But s- but like, but for some like... For some, this experience made them lose their faith. But for Gladys Jordan, it's made her faith stronger. But for Gladys Jordan, it's made her faith stronger losing your faithJavier Leiva: So to me it sounds like a lot of people react a different way when they leave these types of churches,

Gladys Jordan: doing. Yes.

Javier: people lose their religion. It sounds like you haven't lost your re- your faith.

Gladys Jordan: Yes. No, no, I have not because this is not Go- God didn't do this to us. We did this to ourself for not listening to God. No.

Javier: Yeah.

Gladys Jordan: No. I, I, I can't blame God for this. There, there, there's no way, no. And

Show Notesspeaker: well, this concludes the Chain of Command series. If anything new happens, I promise to keep you updated on Patreon, Pretend Plus on Apple Podcasts. If there's enough for a full episode, I'll, I'll update everyone on this main feed. Either way, I got an eye on these guys, and it ain't over yet. Also, Jared and I filmed our entire ride down to Fayetteville.

Speaker: It was a fascinating conversation, and I'll be posting it on Patreon and Pretend Plus on Apple Podcasts. And make sure to check out... Oh, and make sure to check out his YouTube channel, Heliocentric. I'll make sure to link to it in the show notes It's really, really great. Remember, if you know any young service member, share this episode with them. Spread the word. I wanna thank Gladys Jordan, Sarah DeYoung, Tracy Pelphrey, and co-- and the countless other former members who have documented their experience. This series is a result of their exhaustive research. I'm just putting it together. All right. That's all I have for now. Stay tuned because I do have a big series on the way. I just need time to work on it. In fact, I'm, uh, gonna be reporting on it So I'm gonna take a few weeks off just to catch my breath. In the meantime, I will be playing some of my favorite episodes from my 300-plus episode library Let me know on social media which episode you wanna hear. Today's episode was written and produced by me, Javier Leva. It was edited by the talented Puneet Shenoy with The Podcast Pundits, and our theme music is by Joe Basile with The Chicken.net. All right. That's my time. Talk to you soon.

Jared Smith: Gotcha.

Javier: Yeah. So, wow. So you know nothing about- I mean, you know very little about what we're gonna do today, right?

Jared Smith: Not a lick. No. Where, where the hell are you taking me, Javier?

Javier: Well, it's called The House of Prayer Christian Church. So HOPCC for short. And th- they are a military-

Jared Smith: Wait a minute ...

Javier: uh, without telling you too much, it's, it's just a, a military-affiliated congregation.

Jared Smith: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, so this is hitting me right now. I, I might actually know a tiny bit about this church accidentally.

Javier: Really? Like, like this for real?

Jared Smith: Well, so you telling me that the FBI raided this place, this is giving me flashbacks. Okay. So I've investigated a different house of prayer. Uh, it's a church called the United House of Prayer- Right for All People.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: Which is, um-

Javier: B- Daddy.

Jared Smith: Yes. The Sweet Daddy Cult.

Javier: Sweet Daddy Cult. I was telling my wife about this.

Jared Smith: So I made that video, and in that video I made the mistake of including a clip of- That is- ... the United House of Prayer- ... for All People being raided by the FBI. Oh. And then several people commented and said, "Hey," like, "you need to delete that from the video. That's not- That's not- ... our church ... right. That's a different church." So it might be this church.

Javier: Yeah. No, it's totally... The

Jared Smith: church- Holy crap.

Javier: Whoa ... the church that we're going to today was raided by the FBI.

Jared Smith: Dude.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: That's insane. So I literally had to go into my YouTube editor and, like, delete that- Wow ... news segment-

Javier: Wow

Jared Smith: from the video about the Sweet Daddy Cult.

Javier: Isn't that the worst? That's wild. That YouTube doesn't let you delete videos?

Jared Smith: No, it d- it, well, it lets

Javier: you- Or edit or- It

Jared Smith: does let you ... just se- sections. Yeah ... yeah. Um, I'm, I'm super glad that it got to do that 'cause that was, like, super negligent on my part to not double-check- Well- that it was the same ...

Javier: what's really funny about this is that we're going to The House of Prayer Christian Church.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: But just a couple miles down the road, th- there's, uh, your, the

Jared Smith: church that- The United House of Prayer for All People.

Javier: Right. And then isn't there, like, an IHOP too? Yeah. Like, what? Like, the International House of Pancakes, but, uh-

Jared Smith: The International House of Prayer.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Uh, which was led by the now, uh, now disgraced Mike Bickle.

Javier: I, I think it's best to even have the glare so that it doesn't, like, keep bouncing from

Jared Smith: the seat. Yeah, that's probably fine.

Javier: Other- It

Jared Smith: makes it look cinematic.

Javier: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. JJ Abrams directed this.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: Um, all right. W- why don't we- Yeah ... you wanna- So- Okay.

Jared Smith: Well, so yeah. Uh- The, it's so funny because all of these groups have the phrase House of Prayer in their name-

Javier: Right ...

Jared Smith: because of this obscure passage in I think Isaiah- Right ... which says-

Javier: I was going to ask you about

Jared Smith: that. Yeah, yeah Yeah ..."My people will be called The House of Prayer." And so it's funny because all of these groups independently think they're being so, you know, quirky and special in saying like, "

Javier: Look, we're fulfilling the prophecy in the Bible." Right. "

Jared Smith: We are the fulfillment of this verse." And I have to, like, point out to them like, "No, no, no, no. There's other groups who have, like, had the exact same thought-

Javier: Right ...

Jared Smith: and, and, you know, tried to shoehorn their, their name in there."

Javier: I think what's kinda funny is that in that passage, and I'm not, like, super well-versed in the Bible, but isn't there a line that says it's the house of prayer and something about the den of thieves?

Jared Smith: Ooh.

Javier: Do you recall?

Jared Smith: That's interesting.

Gps: I-

Javier: Should I look it

Gps: up? In about 10 miles, merge exit 70A onto US 421 South and Highway 87 South toward Wilmington.

Jared Smith: Actually, yeah. I'm curious, 'cause I, I actually don't know the full context of that verse. It's difficult, too, because if I'm right, if it's in Isaiah, it's all-

Javier: All right. So it's- I mean, I'm just-

Jared Smith: Sure ...

Javier: reading Google's, like, AI overview.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: But it says, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers," or a statement made by Jesus recorded in Matthew 21:13, Matthew 11:17, Luke 19:46, and, uh-

Jared Smith: Oh, shoot Let's see That's kinda crazy. So yeah, in that verse, you know, Jesus is saying, "Hey, this is, you know, the temple is supposed to be a house of prayer." Um, but then the Pharisees, uh, or rather... Is that right? The Pharisees or the Sadducees have turned it into, like, a place of commerce- Yeah ... because they would sell, um, animals to be sacrificed to the local people as they entered the temple. And Jesus had a conniption over that and thought that that was wildly blasphemous and disrespectful. Um, but so-

Javier: Well, you're gonna find it pretty ironic afterwards when I explain the whole story that, that, uh, the title House of Prayer and even this idea of den of thieves- Mm ... the whole thing is pretty ironic actually when you know the story, so.

Jared Smith: Oof.

Javier: But, so here's something that you should expect, 'cause I know you wanna know very little- Yeah ... about this experience, which I think is totally cool. I already told you that I think we're relatively safe. Like, I don't think anybody is going to, uh, physically assault us- Right ... or I don't think we're going to be, like, turned away. In fact, uh, former members told me that to anticipate being love, love bombed, which- Mm ... you know, I'll take that versus, uh, any, like, um, like, signs of aggression or-

Gps: Yeah ...

Javier: hostility, right? Yeah. But another thing you should, uh, anticipate is that the moment we pull, pull into the parking lot-

Gps: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: we are going to be surrounded- Mm by, by members, 'cause they're not anticipating us, but they're, they're gonna think that it's really weird that we're just pulling up.

Jared Smith: Yeah. I'm- ... wildly intrigued.

Javier: Yep. Let's just make sure we go to the right- Let's just make sure that we go to the right House of Prayer. Yeah.

Jared Smith: That could be our cover story. Yeah. "Oh, sorry, we thought we were going to see Sweet Daddy."

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Oh, man. Sweet

Javier: D- I just watched that again. I had watched... That was the first video I watched of you- Mm-hmm ... and, um, that was so good, and it was even better the second time, so.

Jared Smith: Man, I'm still in, I'm still in talks with some former members who are trying to figure out their next steps and what to do about the cult. Um, and it's, it's scary, man. Um, a really despotic structure of leadership, um, that's taking advantage of thousands of really good people. Um- Yeah ... it's hard to watch.

Javier: Well, and that's pretty interesting 'cause that, that's what I wanted to talk to you about because I could even use this as a bonus episode.

Jared Smith: Sure,

Javier: sure. We were even talking about that eventually people are going to start recognizing you because of your work. But then I, I didn't even think about it until now that all these churches that you go to, especially like that one with, uh, Sweet Daddy, that you can't just leave the story behind. Like, people still probably approach you all the time and talk to you and-

Jared Smith: Yeah

Javier: does that happen a lot, or is it just this church?

Jared Smith: No, increasingly. Um, yeah, I get recognized on the streets fairly often. Um, and it's funny, right? Like, uh, being in my position as a YouTuber, it's usually only good things IRL and mixed things on the internet. Um, you know, 'cause if you see somebody who attacked your religious institution in person, unless you're totally unhinged, you're just going to, you know, give them a dirty look.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: And that's kind of the end of it. Um, it's only the people who like you who approach you- Right ... and, you know, want to shake your hand and say, "Thank you for calling out the Jehovah's Witnesses," or, you know, "Thank you, I'm gay and ex-Mormon," and right? So, like, um, all of the interactions that I've had in person, knock on wood, have been really overwhelmingly positive- That's good um, in my position.

Javier: Which, which story was, like, the most surprising for you? Like, how many churches have you visited, and which one's, like-

Jared Smith: Oh, man. I mean, it's been over 100, um, churches that I've visited, um- But it hasn't been quite that many videos yet. Um I don't know, man. It's like all of them are unique. I think the Jehovah's Witnesses, I was not expecting them to be as controlling as they are. Um-

Javier: Controlling as in when you went to visit, or after you posted your video?

Jared Smith: Well, I, I think that, like, I was just, based on what I knew about Jehovah's Witnesses going into it, I knew that they were a little sectarian, a little fringe. Right. But I didn't realize that they had a s- such a firm grip on-

Javier: On

Jared Smith: their congregation ... the lives of the individual people. Um, you know, they're explicit that you are not allowed to watch content, uh, critical of the Jehovah's Witness organization. You're not allowed to Google Jehovah's Witnesses, um, because they're terrified that you're going to stumble upon, uh, all of the legal scandals, you know, criticisms of the blood doctrine, um, their, you know, big lawsuit that's, uh, happening in Norway. Um, and so it's like they're kind of, you know, one of the worst, most despotic cults hidden in plain sight because they're so boring. Um, they don't have any crazy doctrines that are like, you know, like Scientology. There's nothing that's like clickbait-y about them.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: But when you scratch below the surface, it's like, oh, my God. Like, I, I've talked to so many people and had correspondences with so many people who are like, "Yeah, I started questioning the organization. I got kicked out of the, the Kingdom Hall, and I haven't seen my, any of my family members in five years."

Javier: Right. So they're not sensational- Right ... so they're right under the surface, and they can, they can multiply, they can, they, they're huge. Everybody knows a Jehovah's Witness- Yeah ... and yet th- there's so much control and so much like li- like families being torn apart.

Jared Smith: Yeah,

Javier: yeah. And it just goes undetected just 'cause it doesn't make headlines basically.

Jared Smith: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And with, with every breath that I talk about them, I always have to stress that the individual Jehovah's Witnesses that I know- Are great people that I've met are wonderful- Yeah ... wonderful people. Yeah. I don't, I, I always wanna be cautious when I'm talking about cults and high-control groups to never let the opinions and the disgust surrounding the group and the leadership and the doctrine and theology negatively influence people's understanding of individuals who are in those groups.

Javier: Yeah. I, I think that's fair, too, and one thing that I... And we're not talking about the church that we're going to, but I've, I've covered, um, like cults, like, uh, I mean, I don't know how else to describe it. It is a religious sect, but I've covered this topic a lot. And when, when you look at a cult, especially not a, not a small one, but a medium-sized to a large cult like- Mm-hmm the Jehovah's Witness, you realize that there's like an organizational structure.

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Javier: Right? And so there's like the middle management tier.

Jared Smith: Mm.

Javier: And they're

Gps: good- Take Exit 78 onto US 422 South and Highway 87 South toward Lillington, then keep left at the bridge

Javier: ramp and continue to follow 420 South I was like, I thought that was... Give me a second

Gps: Use the left lane to keep left to merge onto US 421 South

Javier: The gimbal thing, like, actually works out really nice 'cause-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: it seems pretty steady. It doesn't look like it's... I mean, it might look different once we-

Jared Smith: Right, right ...

Javier: look at the footage, but...

Jared Smith: No, I bet it'll be good. Let

Javier: me look. Yeah. W-

Jared Smith: w- Could you tilt it up just an inch? Yeah. Like a millimeter. Yeah. Right there.

Javier: All right. Ooh, sorry. Let me, uh... Did I bring my water? Coffee makes me so thirsty.

Jared Smith: Oh, man.

Javier: I forgot if I brought it or... I probably left it in my car. Yeah, probably. I grasp- All

Jared Smith: right.

Javier: No worry. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, what I was saying was, so these, these cults, they run like a corporation, and- Mm-hmm ... sometimes there's the middle managers, and there's layers and layers of, of managers, and these good people, which I think they're all-

Gps: In about 32 miles, continue straight

Javier: I think they're all, like, good people inherently, right? Yeah. Um, maybe not, but, but some of them, even the good people, are forced to make really bad decisions and, and are- Yeah ... the ones that are implementing the control and, and like the, the separation and isolation. Mm-hmm. Uh, which I find fascinating because when they leave, that's, that's what's really interesting, is like, how do they cope with that, everything that they have done-

Jared Smith: Yeah,

Javier: yeah in the cult? Like, they could be regretful about ever joining the cult. They... But, uh, I have, I've spoken to some people, especially for this story, that are like, "Yeah, what they did was wrong. What they did was wrong," but they don't own up to the stuff that-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: they

Jared Smith: did- Yeah ...

Javier: while they were there.

Jared Smith: That, that's actually a fascinating point. Um- I think it takes a lot more humility and it takes a lot more processing to really come to terms with the fact that like, "No, I was complicit in this." I think that for a lot of people, um, their hyper reaction against whatever religious movement they came out of, if it's really negative and really sinister, I- a lot of the time, that's a psychological coping mechanism to distance themselves from their own complicity within the group.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Um, and yeah, it's, it's funny because I've started calling this, um, uh, post-religious amnesia, where some of the people who, you know, leave a fundamentalist sect of Christianity or any cult, um, they leave, and it's almost like inconceivable to them how anyone ever believed in- Right ... the claims of that group.

Javier: But they once believed it.

Jared Smith: Right.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Right.

Speaker: Which

Javier: is crazy.

Jared Smith: I, I actually, um, I follow an ex-Mormon channel, and I love their content, and it was fascinating because they're, you know, incredibly critical of the LDS church and hierarchy. Um, but when sh- they, they made a video where they went back to a Mormon church. They, they visited a ward, and they, you know, went back to their car and they vlogged the whole thing, and they broke down in tears, and their reaction to being back in the, in the world of the Latter-day Saints was, "Where the hell were these people when I was a Mormon?"

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: And they s- they were just so dumbfounded because, you know, people got up on stage and they talked about, you know, caring about, um, the people who are negatively affected by ICE, and humanitarian concerns and, you know, poverty. And it was like inconceivable to them that like there were, uh, social justice-oriented Mormons, and it's like- I, I think that those people were always there.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: But it was, you know, there's such a intense desire to distance oneself, um, from that world, uh, you know, after coming out of it, that, uh, it just seemed unfathomable to them.

Javier: You know another strange phenomenon that, that I found with former members? Is that some of the, some of the- Yeah ... some of them just leave religion altogether.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: But then some of them still have faith, which I, I find interesting- Yeah ... because I, I'm trying to put myself in their shoes.

Jared Smith: Right, right. And I'm thinking,

Javier: if I experienced that, I would just go 180 and just, almost like you, right?

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Javier: Where you were really, like, religious. Mm-hmm. You grew up in, in the church, and then you just became an atheist. I think I would do that, but-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: some, some people that I talk to, they still have faith in God.

Jared Smith: Well, so it's interesting, right? It's, uh- 'Cause it's kind of like two separate things. It's, it's actually more rare that a person who was really passionate and really zealous about faith in some capacity just leaves it and then says-

Javier: Yeah ... "

Jared Smith: Yeah, I, I'm just gonna get really into sports," or I'm gonna- Right ... you know, like, it's not going to be any part of their life. More often what happens is all of those passions, you know, all of that, all of that lived experience, it gets recontextualized into a new framework. So, you know, that's kind of the, the stereotypical, like, ex-Mormon who becomes an anti-Mormon, right? Um, the phrase in that world is, "Well, you can leave the church, but the church, but you can't leave the church alone."

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: Um, alternatively, a lot of times what happens with cult members is it kind of becomes unbearable to them to imagine that the whole thing is a house of cards. And so they can kind of determine that, well, you know, if it's a cult based within Christianity, they can say, "Hey, this cult is in error." Right. "But not the whole of Christianity."

Javier: Right. And that could be true.

Jared Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And for me as a person who ultimately just wants to see people well and thriving, I'm happy that that is the case. I'm happy that, like, more moderate forms of religion exist to act as a stepping stone- Right ... for some of these people to leave a group. Right. So, you know, if, if somebody is leaving, um, the Sweet Daddy cult and they decide, hey, like, you know, Sweet Daddy was a, a money-hungry grifter, um, but they still say, "No, but, like, the Bible is true," and they go get plugged in to a local, um, AME church, you know, a, a local Black Methodist church, I say that's wonderful. And I think that that's probably where a lot of my, like, atheist colleagues get it wrong, is they think that it's an all or nothing game. They think that either, you know, you have to be a, a gunslinging atheist, um, or, you know, the, getting people out of cults is, like, not worthwhile. And I say, like, "No." Like, dude, like, not all religions and not all permutations of faith are built equal. Um, and some people You know, like the next step that they need to take in getting out of a high control group is to just go to a regular church or a regular mosque or a regular temple.

Javier: Um-

Jared Smith: Not

Javier: to just cut cold turkey.

Jared Smith: Yeah. And I think that, like, if that's being held as the standard, um, a, a, a lot of it's going to look much more like failure than it needs to.

Javier: Well, so you're going to see after this that there are some people that leave a cult or a high control group and then join another one.

Jared Smith: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think it's a certain type of person who does that. Um- And I, I'm super curious. Um, all I know about this place is that it's, uh, they, they draw a lot from the military. Yeah. That's the only thing you've told me.

Javier: That's, that's right. And really, the military's a side character here. It's just, um- Sure ... it's, it's what makes it like an affinity, um, in, in my opinion, an affinity con, right? Like, or, like their recruitment strategy. Like, every church has a recruitment strategy, right? Like, what's the JW- Yeah ...'s recruitment strategy? B- everybody? Or like, are they going after a specific, uh, cohort of people?

Jared Smith: Grieving people. Okay. Yeah, they, they specifically emphasize grieving people. Yeah. Um, people who are going through a divorce or a bad breakup or who just lost a child. I've heard, I can't verify this, I've heard horror stories where the Jehovah's Witnesses will specifically hang out at graveyards, uh, specifically to, you know, target people- Yeah who are vulnerable.

Javier: I mean, and, and it makes perfect sense, right? Like, this is not, uh, an example of a cult, but this was, um, a group of people who, who liked holistic medicine and didn't believe in the, the traditional Western medicine, you know, that, um, the, the, the scammers in this scenario- Mm-hmm ... not cult leaders, would hang out at, like, health stores- Yeah at the health aisles. Yeah. Right? And so it, it's all about, it's about marketing and knowing who your audience is. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and in this case it's the military is their audience, right? And, and we're gonna- Yeah ... we're gonna go here today, and we're probably never even going to hear the word military, Army, Marine.

Jared Smith: Right.

Javier: Right. But it just happens to be that we're going to Fayetteville, North Carolina, where there's a major military- There's a base ... base. Yeah, Fort Bragg. And these, um... And I, I think it's fair to talk about 'cause I don't think that it's going to spoil anything, but, uh, these churches are based anywhere there's, uh, big military bases because think about, uh, military personnel. They're usually o- young, out of high school- Right ... away from their family.

Jared Smith: Mm.

Javier: They are m- getting a s- a steady paycheck. Uh, they miss home, you know, they, they're lonely, and they are highly susceptible to, um, orders and, like, being told what to do. You know? Like, like they're programmed to take orders, and it- Yeah it almost makes for, in my opinion, like, a perfect cult member.

Jared Smith: Hmm. Yeah,

Javier: I- Or at least a perfect cult recruit.

Jared Smith: That is interesting. I- I wonder about the overlap there. And I'm sure it's not a one-to-one thing of like, oh, you know, these are people who like taking orders. Because also I'm sure that a lot of people in the military, um, tend to be, like, very disagreeable on average. Um, I don't associate, like, being in the military with being a yes-man.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: Um-

Javier: And, and th- yeah, that's almost unfair to the military, right? But, but while you're there, while you are in the military-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: you're not supposed to get out of line, right?

Jared Smith: Right. There's a respect for authority.

Javier: Right. There's definitely a respect for authority.

Jared Smith: So, you know, they're-

Javier: But I mean, obviously every one of those people have strong opinions, but-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: it's not encouraged, right? This is not like the kind of environment that, you know, uh, it- where it's a meritocracy where everybody could, you know, like, form their own society. No, this is like-

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah ...

Javier: I'm telling you what to do. And, and, you know, people that, um, are former military members, they keep, even after the military, like, their rooms are, like, impeccable. Like, they fold th- their sheets. And, like, my, my stepdad, he's, like- Mm ... former Army, and, like, he's anal about everything and wants everything in the right place. And-

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah

Javier: so y- you're kinda hardwired to be, um, I don't know. Th- that has nothing to do with, uh, taking orders, but about being regimented and, and having Why does it, oh, it, the radio comes on, like, randomly.

Jared Smith: It's, uh, my Bluetooth connects to the car, and then it starts playing- Oh ... the last thing that I was playing.

Javier: I gotcha.

Jared Smith: Which is my new music that I'm working on.

Javier: Oh, are you working on music?

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: Why did Spotify change their logo?

Jared Smith: I don't know if there's-

Javier: It's very weird.

Jared Smith: I think they're doing a promotional thing or something.

Javier: I'm not even quite sure what it is. It's like a-

Jared Smith: A disco ball ...

Javier: it's a, is it a disco ball? Yeah.

Jared Smith: Yeah. That's crazy.

Javier: No idea. So tell me about your music, man. Should we stop recording for a while, or you wanna keep?

Jared Smith: Uh-

Javier: It's up to you.

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so, um, I'm a one-man metal band. Oh, nice. Uh, so the channel name Heliocentric, that whole channel actually started primarily to promote my music, my heavy metal music. So, um, Heliocentric is a metaphor for being Christocentric. I made the name, uh, when I was still a believer. Um, and then in between writing my first album and releasing my first album, I actually became an atheist, and I had this weird moment of realization where it was like, "I don't believe that any of this is true anymore, but I'm still really passionate about these stories." Um, and so I, you know, was releasing Christian music as an atheist. Uh, and I somehow felt okay about that, and, uh, it kind of rings

Javier: true. But it, but it's, it, this is like a really weird Venn diagram, right?

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause

Javier: you have, like, Christian music, heavy metal-

Jared Smith: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: atheist, and so

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: So wait, you're releasing still Christian music, or-

Jared Smith: I think, I think the first couple of albums were, like, explicitly Christian. Um, I think the music that I'm working on now is a little bit more complicated.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Um, I think that there are some portions of the music that, like, Christians will be able to say, like, yes and amen to. There's other parts where they're gonna have to wrestle a little bit more. My hope is that, like, uh, you know, Christians will, will take it seriously a- and interact in dialogue with the music. Um, but it's not quite, uh, you know, praise Jesus, hallelujah. You know? Yeah. I, I think that there's... But in terms of it being- You know, about Christianity or about faith, that's all I'm able to write about

Javier: That's, that's really interesting. And for you, like when you became an atheist in that process, was it like an aha moment? Was it like a flip of a switch or was it a, a slow

Jared Smith: burn? No, it, it happens, I mean, in some sense, I started becoming an atheist the day that I became a Christian, right? Like my Christianity was built on really, really, really hoping that atheism and nihilism wasn't true. And so my 10-year stint within Christianity, my decade of ministry and street preaching and, uh, altar calls and worship leading, all of that was, I think, secretly fueled by the terror of imagining a universe without God, and that horrified me. And, you know, in the process, I also fell in love with Jesus. I cultivated a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Um, but I think towards the end of everything I'm not sure if it's that I felt more psychologically safe to, you know, kind of relax my shoulders enough and just kind of reexamine everything and realize, hey, I- if I'm really being honest with myself, I don't think that this story is true. I don't know if it was that. I don't know if it was, you know, cognitive dissonance about it all kind of just caught up with me. Um, but there wasn't a singular, you know, aha moment or a single night where it all just flipped. Um- It was like I got tired of squinting

Javier: And remind me, were you born into religion or you became Christian?

Jared Smith: Yeah. So I mean, I, I was born into, you know, suburban Christianity. Both my parents are believers.

Javier: Are they still believers?

Jared Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah They're, they're very, very passionate, very devout. Um, but when I became Christian at 13, when I like, you know, it wasn't just being dragged to church every Sunday. I, I became a Christian, um, and became very zealous very quickly. Uh, I quickly became like more spiritually inclined than either of my parents. Um, like I had moments where, you know, I would wag my finger at my dad for, uh, you know, not taking his faith seriously enough, which looking back is audacious and insane, but yeah.

Javier: Well, I mean, that, that's really interesting 'cause, uh, we can talk about this later, but I was just talking to a, a former member of, uh, House of Prayer- Mm-hmm and she, her son's still in there.

Jared Smith: Right, right

Javier: And it, when she approaches him or sees him in the grocery store or whatever, and it, it almost reminded me of that interaction that you had with your dad, where it's like he's looking at his mom, but he's through a silk screen or something. Like-

Jared Smith: Yeah ...

Javier: you know?

Jared Smith: Well, I mean, it's, it is one of the most, you know, despotic things that religion does. And, you know, it's, it's weird for me to say that because I'm generally the atheist who's pretty gracious towards religion, but there is a real nefarious sense in which like religion can possess people to disavow their family members, um, criticize their friends over, you know, pedantic matters of doctrine or interpretation, um, things that you as a person would really never do outside of religion.

Gps: Right

Jared Smith: Um, you know, like imagine that, uh, you know, I actively like, you know, disowned you or disavowed you as a friend because you didn't like a certain movie or because you interpreted the ending of a movie a different way.

Javier: Right

Jared Smith: Um, that's just like unfathomable.

Javier: Yeah

Jared Smith: But-

Javier: But I mean, it makes sense when you're in it, right? Yeah, yeah Like it's unfathomable now for you in this state, you know? That, that's interesting, man. I've never really been... I, I grew up Catholic.

Gps: Mm-hmm.

Javier: And I went through the motions. I got my communion, you know? Like-

Gps: Yeah, yeah ...

Javier: baptized, the whole thing. Um, and I still consider myself Baptist. I mean, uh, Catholic. I don't know why I said Baptist. That was weird. Um, and it's so funny 'cause I'm doing, um, I'm going to be the godfather of my niece.

Jared Smith: Mm-hmm.

Javier: And I had to Take some sort of Catholic quiz- Yeah,

Jared Smith: yeah ... or

Javier: Catholic test, you know? And th- there were things that I said I agree with that I definitely don't agree with.

Jared Smith: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Javier: And, but it's hard because, like, for me, being a Catholic is more of a, an identity rather than a religion. Right, right. Right? And so, like, I was checking out some things that I'm like, "Oh, this is, this is not right." Um, and I can't even believe that in 2026 this is how we talk about things, but... And, and you can't get any more mainstream than Catholic, right?

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Javier: And it's just, for me, I've, I've always wrestled with religion. I, I grew up, my mom is very religious.

Jared Smith: Right.

Javier: Well, not very religious. She's just very, she's a believer, for sure, but she never pushed it down my throat.

Jared Smith: Yeah.

Javier: And sh- when I would express doubt about my faith, she always said that that was okay and that that was my own personal journey. Yeah. And she never gave me pressure to feel one way or the other, which I really appreciate, and I've kind of taken that same approach with my daughters, although I feel like I might have over-corrected, you

Jared Smith: know? Mm-hmm,

Javier: yeah. Like, where they're not, they don't believe at all. Right, right. Like, I, I give them the space and, like, we... Early on when they were young, we took them to some churches and stuff like, but, uh- Yeah ... it never took to them. But I also wonder, like, 'cause I know that, I've read articles that religion is kind of, um, losing its appeal to, to younger people, but that it might be having a resurgence now.

Jared Smith: Yeah. So there's been a lot of people, um, who have been commentating on this. Currently, kind of the The discussion as it stands is, like, you know, the c- the Christian YouTube world is all excited because there's been some data that's come out that says that Gen Z is having a revival and taking religion more seriously than, you know, the Millennials or Gen X did. Um, and then a lot of the atheist community has come back and said, "Hey, you need to look at this data again," um- Yeah because it actually-

Javier: It could just, it could just be one study. I didn't look at it,

Jared Smith: but- Yeah. I, I think it was, um... I forget how the data was, like, pitched or, like, you know, there was some technicality where it made it seem like there was a higher affiliation. Um, but instead, I think probably the more, um, apt interpretation is that, like, maybe religious people are getting more religious. Um, I, I'd have to go back and, like, and, and look at it again, but the idea that, like, you know, Gen Z is the most religious generation in history is, is definitively not true. Right.

Javier: Well, they are bringing back the mall. I hear that-

Jared Smith: Oh ...

Javier: that Gen Z-

Jared Smith: They're welcome to try, man.

Javier: They're... Yeah. And smoking apparently is cool a- Yeah gain. I was like, "What?" I went... Where did I go the other day? Oh, yeah, it was Virginia, and, like, everybody was smoking. I'm like, "I thought- Really? ... we got rid of this stuff."

Jared Smith: Yeah, we were the generation that ended teen smoking, man.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: That's crazy.

Javier: That's sad, yeah. Yeah. But all right. Well, whatever. I guess everything old is new again.

Jared Smith: Yeah. But

Javier: I wanted to tell you something about... Ah, shit. Oh, yeah, this was an observation. Just driving here from, from Raleigh to Fayetteville-

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah ... I

Javier: couldn't help but notice how many churches- A

Jared Smith: plethora of churches.

Javier: Isn't that crazy? Yeah, man. Like, there were more churches than anything else.

Jared Smith: It's weird. Um, and I don't know why the South is, like, such a hub for that. It's, it's interesting. Um, and it's, it transcends, like, racial lines, right? 'Cause I mean, you know, there's a slew of Black churches alongside white churches here. In

Gps: about 10 miles,

Jared Smith: keep

Gps: right to merge onto Highway 87 South.

Jared Smith: Um, I think it largely transcends, like, economic status because, you know, you've got churches, um, in the suburbs and in rural areas. It's just, like, something about this geographic location. It's just this thick concentration of it. And actually- Well, it's

Javier: also cultural, right? Like, you go to church on Sundays.

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah. But it, but I think it goes beyond that because, you know, within... I, I, I have, I d- I have a lot of, like, ex-Catholic friends, and especially the people, the ex-Catholics I know or the, the kind of moderate Catholics who were kind of raised in it, you know, they were the, the Christmas and Easter Catholics- Yeah That's kind of their stance on it. Like, yeah, you know, you just, you go to church on Sundays. It's your third space. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Whereas within the Protestant world, it's all about fervor. It's about passion. It's about commitment. It's about, you know, you n- if you're a Baptist, it's all about sharing your faith with others. If you're a Charismatic, it's all about, you know, experiencing God for yourself. Um, and if you're, uh, an Ep- an Episcopalian, it's all about, you know, your, your service to the poor, um, or marginalized communities. So I, I feel like here it's much less about, you know, just stamping your card and clocking in and out every Sunday. Right. Like, there's something d- deeper to it here.

Javier: For sure. I mean, so you brought up going to Black churches. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I, this is what I find fascinating about this little project of yours-

Jared Smith: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: is that you are so not, like, Black at all. And so What do

Gps: you mean?

Javier: And so, like, I, I could just imagine you walking into a Black congregation and just like-

Jared Smith: Yeah,

Javier: yeah ... you know, singing Out Like a Soul Rebel. So what do you, what do you tell them when you get there? Like-

Jared Smith: It depends, um, it depends on the church, and, uh, you know, a lot of times I'm honest. I just say like, "Hey," like, "I, I just like exploring churches." You know, like-

Javier: And they welcome you with open arms.

Jared Smith: Yeah. That, that, like- Like, I think e- e- even within, like, cults, a lot of people are just, like, so surprised that, like, "Wait a minute, you mean you actually go to them?" Like, the vast majority of cults, they're looking for new members.

Javier: Right.

Jared Smith: They're excited to open their doors.

Javier: Exactly.

Jared Smith: Um-

Javier: Except for the one that I went to in Western North Carolina.

Jared Smith: Yes.

Javier: They actually, um, have big signs, and they have a guard that

Jared Smith: checks

Javier: you in. They have signs? Yeah, yeah. They-

Jared Smith: What do the signs say?

Javier: "No recording, no visitors, no-"

Jared Smith: No visitors? No, no. Seriously?

Javier: Yeah. No, no.

Jared Smith: Whoa. This

Javier: is a, a closed circuit.

Jared Smith: Wow.

Javier: Yeah. That's- Like, you wouldn't be able to, like, just waltz in there.

Jared Smith: That's, like, unheard

Javier: of. That, and, and that one- Holy crap ... would be, uh, they wouldn't get, like, physical with you, but there would be some sort of confrontation.

Jared Smith: Mm.

Javier: And where they would maybe even call the authorities, and the authorities are sometimes their own members, so yeah, that one was scary. 'Cause when I went to that, uh, cult, it's called the Word of Faith Fellowship-

Gps: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: I, it was something like this. I went with a buddy of mine, but he was too scared to go in, so he was going to, like, drop me off, and I told him that, "If you don't hear from me by noon..." 'Cause I was welcomed. Yeah. They, they, they actually invited me, so I was fine. Really? Yeah. Um, they, they were fine. They were fine. But if I would've just showed up unannounced, I think there would've been some problems.

Jared Smith: Yeah. Yeah, understandably. WOOF, man, what a doozy. Um-

Javier: WOOF, yeah, that's their acronym, actually. Word of Faith Fellowship. Yeah, that, that's what they're called.

Jared Smith: Oh, that's hilarious given- Yeah ... I, I listened to that episode. Yeah. It was horrifying. Um-

Javier: And they call 'em wolves too because they, they have a screaming prayer, and so they howl, and, like, some people could hear them at night and, you know, like, in the woods, and they sound like wolves. You know, like You know, like... Hey, one other question for you, 'cause you mentioned this and it, it, it sparked my curiosity. You said that when you were a believer and you were really in the thick of it- Mm-hmm ... that you would do street preaching as well?

Jared Smith: Yeah, yeah, on, and

Javier: it wasn't- How did that

Jared Smith: feel,

Javier: and, like, what was that like?

Jared Smith: Yeah. It's interesting. I've been meaning to do a video actually comparing and analyzing different street preachers. I wanna just, like, hit the town- And, uh, just like find different street preachers who have different preaching styles. Because street preachers kind of are seen as a monolith. It's like we all have the image of the Westboro Baptist preacher in our heads. Yeah. You know, the, "God hates F slurs"- Yeah, yeah ... um, in our heads. And in actuality, street preachers are a very diverse group, right? It's just, it's a genre of preaching. And so if you actually sit and listen, you'll hear some street preachers who are just crazy. Like, I've had some, uh, conversations with the Black Hebrew Israelites that are, like, absolutely unhinged, and then I've had some with other Black Hebrew Israelites that were really nice. Yeah. Um, and same thing with, you know, the, the white street preaching crowd. Um, there's, like, some of them are, you know, really stern and it's all about hell and repentance. When I was a street preacher, I didn't do it, like, every weekend. I don't wanna misconstrue it, but the several times that I did do it, it was from this place of, like, you know, an earnest call. Like, you know, "If you're depressed, if you're sad, if you're, you know, looking for, um, the meaning of life, like, look no further. It's found in, in Christ, and he loves you, and he cares for you." And so to me, it had the sentiment of being humanitarian at first.

Javier: IHOP?

Jared Smith: IHOP, let's go.

Javier: There we go. Sorry.

Jared Smith: All good.

Javier: Sorry. But- But I mean, what are the chances?

Jared Smith: It... Yeah.

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: Oh, man.

Javier: But, yeah, but you were saying to you, it, it felt like something deeper, right?

Jared Smith: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like, you know, if, if love is prioritizing the other above yourself, then it's like the most loving thing I can do is to share this wonderful thing with people. Because for me, like, Christianity was not just an escape from hell. It was this bliss that I found within this kind of ecstatic experience of, uh, the Holy Spirit and falling in love with Jesus. It was like, it wasn't just, "Hey, turn or burn." It's like, "Hey, there's a real life. There's a real hope to this whole story, and I wanna share that with you."

Javier: Yeah.

Jared Smith: So, um, yeah, that was my experience street preaching.

Javier: And what, what was your denomination?

Jared Smith: So I was a Pentecostal. Pentecostal. Um, so which is funny because I don't know if the Word of Faith Fellowship would technically be considered Pentecostal or if they would be considered charismatic. Um-

Javier: Yeah, I don't know. Um-

Jared Smith: Generally, Pentecostalism-

Javier: Is it like a gradient almost? Like-

Jared Smith: Kind of. So Pentecostalism, um, emerged in the early 20th century in California, and the results of that were all of the big Pentecostal denominations, so the Church of God, um, the Assemblies of God, and Foursquare, and then some others that, that popped up as well. Uh, and- Yeah, you know, they, they emphasize speaking in tongues, prophecy, healings, et cetera. The charismatic world was non-denominational, so rather than operating within the, um, you know, these, like, explicitly charisma- or the, these explicitly, uh, you, you would still say charismatic circles, um, or, or existing denominations, they began to, like, infiltrate existing denominations. So you had, like, Baptists, and Catholics, and Episcopalians who were starting to take interest in speaking in tongues. Right. And so you would have, you know, charismatic Lutherans, charismatic Presbyterians, um, who started to dabble in these things, and then you had, um, just non-denominational charismatic churches sprouting up and said, like, "Hey, we're just kind of our one-off thing," which then eventually gave birth to, um, what's now called the New Apostolic Reformation, the NAR. And the NAR is kind of a dirty word right now, um, but it's preachers like Bill Johnson, Paula White, um, who is, uh, Trump's, um, faith advisory person lady. Um, but all of these people are kind of, like, seen as head honchos and leaders in the church for no other reason than that they are charismatic and seem to possess this, um, this authority that is just presumably given to them by God. But there's no, there's no structure to it. There's no organizational hierarchy. There's no oversight-

Javier: Right ...

Jared Smith: which scares a lot of Christians, justifiably. Um- It's

Javier: kind of like a headless monster.

Jared Smith: Yeah, and it's all built on charisma, right? Yeah. It's built on whether or not you have the spiritual rizz to, you know, convince a whole lot of people to follow you.

Javier: Yeah. Which is-

Gps: It's,

Javier: it's wild, right? Because a lot of the organizations that we've probably looked into have some sort of hierarchy and structure, and this is

Jared Smith: just-

Javier: Yeah ... like, whoever preaches the loudest, I guess. I don't know.

Jared Smith: Yeah, and I think that that's, it's definitely given itself over to a lot of abuse. Um, Mike Winger is a big evangelical YouTuber who I disagree with on nearly everything, but he's made some really solid videos, um, kind of calling out and taking down some of the bad actors in the NAR world and exposing, like, you know, predatory behavior, um- Like grifting, uh, you know, fake prophecy where a dude has an earpiece or something like that. Um-

Javier: Yeah, I mean, that happens a lot.

Jared Smith: Um- Yeah ...

Javier: there's, um, I don't know if you know The Amazing Randy. He was a magician.

Jared Smith: Yes.

Javier: How he busted... I forget who the preacher was. That was

Jared Smith: awesome. That was, that was glorious. I will say, though, that, you know, the, the earpiece or the straight-up grifting, it's... I would say that it's much more rare than people would imagine-

Gps: In one

Jared Smith: month, the key began to merge onto harder and harder surfaces towards full bloom I would

Gps: imagine.

Jared Smith: Um, and, and even in the NAR world, you know, when somebody gets exposed as a straight-up grifter, they usually are, um, pulled from leadership, you know? And, and increasingly there's pressure to say like, "Hey, you need to formally, uh, formally denounce this person."

Javier: Well, and I would imagine that a lot of these, uh, preachers are very intuitive, right? Like, they don't need an earpiece. Right, right. They

Jared Smith: could...

Javier: They know how to read a room, and they know how to read a person. And it's almost like, uh, I did a whole series on, on, um, pe- psychics- The right thing to do Yeah ... and people who, uh, could speak to the dead and all that.

Jared Smith: Mm.

Javier: All they're doing is like a decision tree. Like-

Jared Smith: Yeah,

Javier: yeah ... you know, "Oh, who's... Who are you wanting to talk to? Oh, it's a demo..." Oh, and then they kinda like, you know, depending on your answer, they, they, they just know how to laser in on whatever you're concerned about or-

Jared Smith: Right. Right ...

Javier: want prayer over.

Jared Smith: No, it's real. That's-

Javier: So game plan. So we have seven minutes before we arrive.

Jared Smith: All right.

Javier: And it's 15 minutes till showtime. Um, what do you wanna do? Do you wanna-

Jared Smith: I say, I say we- Cut recording

Javier: Yeah

Jared Smith: to talk some stuff

Speaker: And plead my cause with them that strive with me. Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for my help. Draw the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me. And then he said right here, "Say unto my soul, I am thy salvation. Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul. Let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise evil against me. Let them be as the chaff before the wind: for the angel of the Lord shall destroy both the wicked and the wicked." Father, we let the angel of the Lord chase them. Come on now. Let's I'm changing now. Brothers, and I'm changing. Brothers, I am praying for something else. Brothers, and if you see me, my feet is appointed. I am ready to stand. I am standing. There's a judgment that has ever been called for- Whether I want to or not, the edge of the law is gonna chase these people down, right? Yes, sir Oh, well, because the water is there. Now I see why there's so poverty. It's an engineering law prison. The devil of the engineering laws You know, the devil changed it into the angel of the Lord. Oh, the angel of the Lord, okay. He said, "Let me see Tom and Linda." Get those that are quick and those, the dudes that say I'm gonna That's a big silver housing. You didn't know all this was in here, right? Did you, huh?