The Greatest Footballer Who Never Played Revisited

Javier: But yeah,

Louis: I've done it before several times.

Javier: yeah, yeah. And I'm curious to see what you're working on next. That's one of my, that's my last question. So I won't, I won't ask you yet. But I have a few questions and, and you know, we're going to get into some things that, you know, might be spoilers, but I think I want to remind my audience throughout the, this episode that, You know, this interview will not do the film justice.

Speaker: You almost have to see it for yourself and see that flamboyant character, right? And so, um, so yeah, there's a risk of running spoilers, but I think I'm going to encourage everybody to watch it. Let me let my dog in real quick because then he's going to be noisy. Hang on. Okay, and at some point, because we're doing renovations on our bathroom, the contractors are going to come in and he always busts into my office like, so am I,

Louis: Luckily, my two daughters are not here at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Uh, my name

Javier: joys of working from home,

Louis: a film producer

Javier: all right, well, let's begin. I got, I got a couple of questions. They're all should be pretty easy for you to answer. I'm sure you've answered these questions a million times, but, uh, let's, let's, let's Yeah. So first of all, I think I would like for you to introduce yourself and like what you do just to have it.

Speaker: I may or may not use that part of it.

Louis: story.

Speaker: We've covered many PRETENDERS on this show. But the guy we're talking about today takes the prize, in my opinion. He didn't commit any crimes that I know of. Yet, he fooled everyone in Brazil and the professional soccer world for decades. Today's episode features the story of Carlos Henrique Raposo, Better known as Kaiser, the greatest footballer never to play the game.. That's right, this guy is a legend in Brazil, yet he some how managed to never play. He partied like a star player, he talked like a player, he even managed to sign for numerous teams during his decade-long career, yet he never actually played a regular game. How is that possible? Well, it's all told in a 2015 documentary I watched recently titled "Kaiser! The Greatest Footballer Never to Play Football." No, this is not an ad. I just watched it and haven't been able to stop talking about it. I've made my friends watch it. And now, I'm going to talk your ear off about it too. In fact, I hopped on a call with the film's producer to get the inside scoop. Even if you're not a soccer fan, you're going to find this story facinating. Trust me. I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND...Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. ///INTRO///Introduction and Interview SetupJavier: That's great. Discovering the Wild Story of KaiserJavier: So Louis, how did you first come across this wild story? And he's right. Like I mentioned in the intro, Carlos Kaiser is a legend in Brazil. And like all legends, it's hard to tell fact from fiction. When a colleague told producer Louis Miles about Kaiser, he couldn't believe it.

Louis: so I would been, um, making some advertising content for a video game called Football Manager. Um, uh, and, uh, I didn't really know what to expect, but I've met up with his friends, uh, a guy called Rob, uh, and Stefan, um, Rob, uh, and Tom and Irish, and Stefan, uh, isn't, but, um, Rob and Stefan work in the city, and Rob told us this story about how he'd, uh, Reddit one day and found this incredible story about a guy who'd never played football, but had been a footballer for 26 years, and he'd found it on Reddit, um, and Rob's, uh, now wife is Spanish and Portuguese and Spanish isn't so far away.

Speaker: And he sort of did a bit of these are the days of pre Google Translate, right? So, so he kind of did that whole thing. And he said, they came and said, well, what'd you make the story? Um, and the story was mad. This guy had signed contracts with all these famous clubs in Brazil. He'd do anything to get a contract, anything not to play a game, including faking injuries and hosting all these, um, ridiculous parties and be becoming sort of, um, the center of life. Yeah, a legend, like the center of the life in Rio de Janeiro, but, but, you know, he was also mates and people were backing him up like, you know, Romario, or Romario, as they say in Brazil, and, um, the captain of the 1970 World Cup, Carlos Alberto Torres is kind of one of the, you know, that that's kind of considered as the greatest team of all time. And you're thinking, well, this doesn't make any sense. I mean, yeah. And I said, well, how much is true? And they said, well, we don't know. And they said, we want to make a movie. And I was like, that's great. Um, and they were like, how'd you do it? And I was like, well, I don't really know. Cause, um, you know, we just, you need to know so much more about it. I said, but I do know a guy called Tim Vickery. He's a pretty famous football commentator that lives in. Brazil, so any English speaking market, he's always on the radio talking about who's the next best player and all the rest of it and I'd worked in Brazil a lot, which is kind of why they were speaking to me. And I was like, look, he's in town. Let's go meet him. So we met him the next week and he turned up in this sort of, um, expats. Um, sort of rowing jacket looking very much like the British abroad, big smile on his face. The Legend of Carlos Henrique KaiserLouis: And, um, we told him, well, tell us what you know about Carlos Henrique Kaiser, um, uh, Hapozo, Kaiser. Um, I'll pick that up. I said, tell us everything, you know, about Carlos Henrique Hapozo, um, also known as Kaiser and the smile on his face. Could have lit up any room and he said, now he said, I've lived in Rio de Janeiro for 21 years and that's the best story I've ever heard. Um, and we said, well, how much is true? He said, no one knows. And that's the point because it is folklore. It is legend. And he said, if you could crack that story, it's the, it's the, it's the kind of key to everything because it's just so much more than just football story. First things first... Louis Myles and his team had to fly to Brazil and look for Kaiser. And so we were like, okay, um, how do we do this then? And, um, the guys worked in the city, so they managed to raise a bit of cash to get us over there. And so, um, fair, uh, I took two directors of photography that I'd worked with closely, who shoot really nice stuff. They were shooting big films at the time. Um, and me, Tom, and those guys, Steve and Will jumped on a plane to Rio, not knowing if we'd get him. Um, uh, and we were either going to come back with a movie or the most expensive. Vacation of all time.

Javier: Exactly. And did you even know the language? Did you speak Portuguese?

Louis: I didn't speak a word of Portuguese. And so it's been, I mean, it, it became like this huge part of all of our lives really, because we went over in the first sort of two days, we, you know, we sort of had an inkling that we, um, we could probably get him and we didn't know if we would, but Tom, as I said, is a doctor of football.

Speaker: Uh, he, um, his mate, his PhD was in the valuation of football clubs. Only time a football club is sold around the world. It's using Tom's. Maths, I suppose. So all these big things and there's loads of Premier League teams being bought out now and they use Tom's Tom's master. Anyway, so through through all that connection, he knew some agents in Brazil.

The Rio Adventure Beginslouis: Um, and then we found Kaiser sort of three or four days in

Speaker: Finding Kaiser was just half the battle. Somehow, they had to convince him to take part in this documentary. So they got an idea.

Partylouis: and we had hired we'd hired at this massive party. Um, uh, apartment right opposite Sugarloaf Mountain. And so we were like, brilliant. What we'll do is we'll get. all the booze in, all the alcohol in, you know, we'll get some music up, you know, we'll go to town here, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be

Javier: it a way to lure him in?

Louis: Yeah, yeah, just thinking, well, he must be the party animal, right? Because all of his stories were about, you know, many, many women and, you know, all these huge parties and carnival and all the rest of it. And you're thinking, wow, this guy, you know, he's kind of, um, you know, anyway, he turned up hobbling. Um, with, um, sort of this huge long mullet, um, with, which was so black, it was blue, you know, so tight, he'd gone to town on the die and these, these big sort of aviator sunglasses.

Speaker: And it worked... the soccer legend showed up. Kaiser, who is much older these days, walked in wearing aviator sunglasses and was sporting a long jet black mullet. And um, he sort of came in and we offered him whatever, and he said, I've never drunk alcohol in my life. And we're like, okay, well, that's kind of not what we're expecting. Um, and then we. Started talking about how a deal could work for a film, what we wanted to do. And we were pretty open and saying that we don't know how this is going to go, but these are incredible stories. And we think, you know, there's a film to be made here because, um, you know, this is not normal. This isn't a traditional sports narrative. Um, it's not like, Oh, Hey, this team were great. Or, Hey, this person is great. This is kind of like, um, you know, uh, how to, how to fake it in an industry where it's almost impossible to fake it.

Javier: Yeah. And not only in an industry, but in a country that takes so much pride in football. I mean, like, it's part of their national identity.

Louis: Yeah. So for your listeners, I mean, like the period that he operated in was sort of mid eighties to mid two thousands, right? So I mean, 26 years. Um, and, uh, that in that period, Brazil, um, had won two World Cups, several Copa Americas. I mean, there, you know, this is. During the period where there's all these famous Nike adverts where Brazil is so good that they're the only thing that they're marketing.

Speaker: They're so marketed by Nike that they rarely play a home friendly game. Like all the Brazil national team play their friendly games in America or London or and they do these world tours because they're such a commodity. They're so good, you know. Um, so, you know, And the Brazilian league is really strong, right? Because it produces all these players. So you can't just go and sign contracts for the likes of Flamengo and Vasco Fluminense and all these clubs without being any good because they're really good, you know. Um, so we talked to him all through that. Parties with celebsLouis: We sort of loosely agreed a deal and then he spent I spent two and a half hours telling us the best stories I've ever heard in my life of which 95 percent of them could never go in a book or a film because, um, it was him having either tricking or having a great time with very famous people. as it transpired, um, uh, well, also he was telling us stories about, you know, him being the football pitch and how actually he was a great player and it was all a bit of a thing to go and get some publicity or the rest of it. And, um, what we kind of worked out in the end was that all the stuff about football was total nonsense and all the stuff with the very famous people, more than likely true. Of which we found out much later on certain things that he said were definitely true because we saw photos of it and all the rest of it. So, um, he would people like George Michael from when would turn up in Rio de Janeiro and Kaiser would show them a good time for the weekend and then Kaiser would, um. And this is so funny. We, this is like a few months on. We, um, after we'd finished filming, we, we, we were out in a, in a bar one night and this lady just turned up out of nowhere saying, it's the beautiful man. It's the beautiful man. Oh, he was the best. He was the best sex of my life. And we're like, what's going on here? And then she told us about this story about how this, this beautiful gay boy had turned up in Rio and, you know, And they were in Búzios, which is the San Tropez of Brazil. So it's all very luxurious. And I was there in a nightclub and I wanted the gay boy, but you couldn't have him. This guy was protecting him. And then, so then I made love with Kaiser and he was the best I'd ever had. And then she got the photos out and it was, him, George Michael and, um, so Kaiser was, was so known within Brazil as being the party guy and the guy to go to that he would go and, you know, look after all these people. And, um, and I can tell that story because George is sadly no longer with us. Um, um, but, um, yeah, It was kind of incredible. So, and then there was affairs with really famous Brazilian singers with super famous tennis players from around the world who'd all come to Rio and they'd all know that they would all end up with Kaiser cause he would be the guy to go to. Um, anyways, we've sort of set with this whirlwind after these two and a half hours.

Meet Kaiser For Dinnerlouis: And then, um, we didn't really know what to think. And then he said, we must we must have dinner. Um, so we're okay. Okay, fine. So then we went to one of the most prestigious restaurants in Rio. We thought we got there and the queue was through the roof. It's a three hour wait. Um, and then, um, we were thinking, well, we'll just go somewhere else.

Speaker: We don't mind, whatever. And within two minutes, Kaiser got us the best seat in the house. And we were weighted upon, uh, like we were royalty, you know, right at the front, best spot, best everything, loads of free gifts, all the

Javier: you're saying, like, even today he has that

Louis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we saved a lot of money on food throughout the production because we could almost walk into any restaurant.

Speaker: Yeah, because his currency was that. I mean, and we'll tell, we'll go into this deeper, but he could, he, he became the king of Rio. He was this kind of center of, you know, of cultural life there. So it was all kind of unbelievable. Anyway, we started filming after that thinking, well, this is great. So we did a,

First Shootlouis: we did a shoot with him and it was very funny.

Speaker: He told us these incredible stories about how he tricked mafia bosses and, um, how he would fake his injuries and about his famous friends and about having orgies with Italian prime ministers and all this sort of stuff. And, um, um, and we thought it was funny. And then we thought, well, we'll go and meet some other people. And I'm not going to lie, the first few days were pretty, um, depressing because, you know, you're thinking about it. We, we raised a lot of money to go on this trip. We've got a great interview with this guy. It was very funny. But then the first two or three days were with, um, like the team doctor of Brazil, but we would film that in the nightclub district evening, uh, in the, in the evening. And it's, it's a Rio thing, but like, um, you know, no one really dresses up in Rio. It's shorts and t shirts all the way. Right. So you were thinking, well, doctor might come in Thing we in a in a In a suit or a shirt, you might go and interview him and you're thinking visually at all times, right? You're thinking, how's this going to look? What's it going to look like? How are we going to build? Even though this is a teaser tape at this point, um, and they just sort of said nice things about Kaiser. And then, yeah, he did this stuff. And, um, and then by day three, we were in a brothel in Lapa again with a transgender funk singer who was claiming never to have sexual relations with Kaiser.

Evidence: Myth vs LegendLouis: Yeah. Um, but he wanted to, and this is all very funny and like, we're finding it funny. Um, but you're kind of thinking, well, the race is cash, but we have no real proof here, like this is, you know,

Javier: Like you're only getting the, the wild stories

Louis: from people that, you know,

Javier: are not very credible. Maybe

Louis: yeah, yeah. And then, and then, then we managed to get to Carlos Alberto Torres, who's, you know, very significant figure in world soccer, right.

Speaker: Um, and go to his office and. He just says, yeah, I had him at two of my clubs. I signed him. Never played him, um, but he was around, causing all this havoc and all the rest of it, and the beauty of this story is, you don't know what's true or not. Um, but he was there. I had him. I didn't, you know, necessarily want him around, but he was good for the group and he was all this sort of stuff. And then, um, and then you think, well, okay, now we've, we've probably got something. And then you start interviewing more footballers who bring their bit, their photos of them together or the rest of it. And you're like, well, no, this is, you know, He's there, he's definitely doing this stuff. Um, and so, and from that point you're thinking, this is great. During the course of the next 18 months, Louis Myles and the production team went on a wild ride interviewing everyone and anyone who may have encounter Kaiser during this time period trying to piece a timeline of this man's life. And it turns out, he reallty did trick some of these clubs in Rio to sign him. He really was a futball player. And he really was protected by the Brazillian mafia. We've got this in incredible story. And then, uh, over the course of the next 18 months, we went on a, an absolute ride, um, uh, throughout all of Rio Society because, you know, this, this story isn't really about football. You know, tricking a club a few times to get in is, is kind of interesting. It's more about the network and the world he created. be able to do all these things and that involves becoming a mafia pet, tricking the mafia, um, uh, the stories of his nightlife, the whole, uh, studying why this could even happen. So it's very, this, this probably could only happen if we were at Rio de Janeiro. I'm not sure it could happen anywhere

Javier: don't even think it could happen again. Like it's like he pulled this incredible stunt.

Louis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and then, but then it was also became this huge cat and mouse game between us and him because the first couple of trips we were getting all these stories. And we were interviewing, interviewing the likes of Verbetto and all these really world class footballers who genuinely loved them, loved the man.

Speaker: I mean, it was, you know, we remember with Verbetto, he started crying. He hadn't seen him for 10 years and he was literally crying when he saw him because he, he, Um, hadn't seen him for so long and Kaiser's not in the best of health or wasn't at the time. Um, um, but what we ended up finding out was that quite a lot of the stories he was saying was being repeated by other people. Um, and they didn't really deviate too much, but then when you push a little bit further, it's quite hard to get anything else out of them. Um, and then, so we were starting to wonder, is he setting people up here? Um, some of these things came through him. So we thought, well, they definitely were. And then some of the things just felt a bit odd around the side. Like people seem to be holding it back a bit. So then we started to go and try and find our own interviewees, like really separate from him, not telling him, like coming over like a few days early. So he wouldn't know we were there and the rest of it, but he would always find out within a few hours.

Javier: Do it. Ring him up.

Can He Play Footballlouis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even people that actually didn't like him. He would find out he had the network all or all across Rio. And then we were getting calls as I say, like from, uh, there's a there's a famous story. Um, and I probably, yeah, I probably should tell you some of the stories that he does. Right. Um,

Javier: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna like, I, I kind of wanted to, I think the audience is going to wonder this guy pulled off this incredible stunt. Right. But could he actually even play football? I mean, like, was he athletic or had any talent whatsoever?

Kaiser's Football Fakerylouis: So the story goes that Kaiser was, um, absolutely terrible at football. So everyone we were speaking to was, uh, there would be like, they have this, um, famous, uh, scene in, in Brazil is all the kicky up, keepy ups on the beach, so like football volley rather than volleyball was with the feet and all the rest of it.

Speaker: And, um, during the time of the nineties and, um, early two thousands, very famous players would go and play there on the beach. So you'd have for Mario, you would have the better, you'd have all these people going down and just playing with everyone on the beach and people go and watch them. Zico would turn up, all these sort of things. Um, and, uh, if Kaiser turned up, no one wanted him on his team because he couldn't kick a ball. He had a problem with the ball. He was that bad. Um, absolutely terrible, right? how did he get in clubs?Louis: So how he did it, uh, with clubs was, um, he would Find a way in, um, and the, the initial way in is that he looked a lot like a footballer called Renato Gaucho. Um, who is, um, a very famous Brazilian footballer, probably not so much internationally, uh, because he kept on not making the team in big tournaments because he was out with Kaiser. Um, so he would be deselected from the tournament because he was out with Kaiser. Um, but he was a really good footballer, kind of like the star boy of Brazilian footballer in the eighties. And Kaiser looked a lot like Renato. They had the same sort of mullet at the back of the head, all the glasses, uh, they all look good. Um, and so Colleaser was going around Rio de Janeiro pretending to be Renato in nightclubs to pick up women, right? And people believed it. They would look so similar, that was it.

Javier: Yeah. I remember this, Yeah. I remember this, this one scene in the movie. It was one of my favorite ones that sticks in my memory. Kaiser shows up. They think it's the other footballer and, and then he shows up trying to get into the club and he's like, no, that you're already in there.

Louis: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, Renato Gaucho is at the bouncer, one of the most famous people in Brazil, he's not allowed in the nightclub because they believe he's already in there at his table, but Kaiser's entertaining in there, right? So, um, and Renato gets wind of this, obviously, because of that, those scenes, and, um, meets Kaiser, but instead of getting angry at him, thinks, well, the brass tacks on this guy, he's amazing, like, you know, that's, that fair play is amazing.

Speaker: Um, so they become really good friends. But during this time period, Kaiser wasn't a professional footballer... at least not yet. He was just living the life of one. Kaiser likes footballer's lifeLouis: So, Um, now Kaiser then really likes. the idea of a footballer's life. Now, I don't think Kaiser was poor, um, but he, uh, he certainly wasn't rich. And so, so he wasn't living in a favela, but he was living in a poor part of Botafogo. So an apartment, but nothing too fancy and not, not particularly educated. And in that situation, in that time in Brazil, if you wanted to become rich, you kind of had to become a lawyer, become, you know, really good at business or become a footballer. And then the reality is, if you're not doing that, was probably, you know, working in a half decent job, but not earning quite enough because inflation is so high and all the things that were going on at the time. So instead of doing that to make money, Kaiser pretended to be Harnasso and pretended to be a footballer. To try and get all the best bits of life to live that footballer's lifestyle. And so he became friends with a lot of footballers because Renato plays for the Brazilian national team. Um, and, uh, and then he likes it so much. He thinks, well, actually, I wouldn't mind being part of a football team and all the rest of it. So he manages to convince, um. Then to give him a trial. Now, you can clubs gave trials all the time on the rest of it. And if you showed any sort of aptitude, then you were likely to be given, um, a two week trial contract. Um, so that would happen quite a lot. He would go in there. The Art of Deception in Brazilian FootballLouis: He was fit enough to do all the sprinting and all the running and all the rest of it look really good. And so he would join on those fitness sessions. Blast those really well. He's very charming. He's got a lot of good chat. Um, uh, people liked him around, so I was really excited, but then when the ball came out, um, he knew he'd be no good. So he'd pull up injured, but then he would always make sure he would do it when the two week contract was nearly at the end. And the law at the time in Brazil, um, was that if you passed your two week contract, um, they had to give you a three month one and be as an official footballer. So he would do it to the point whereby there was enough doubt in the mind of the people. There was, there was obviously doubt in the mind of the people looking at him because he's not been seen with the ball, but he's quite fit. He's good with the people. Everyone seems to like him. It's probably not worth, you know, not paying him a small amount of money to stay on. Um, and then he'd get the three month contract. So then he's in, right? Then he's in a football club. Um, and he's not getting paid very much, but he has a professional footballers card. And at that point, um, he can then go into town and go and get all the things that he would want. So he would go and get free food by saying, Hey, I have this professional footballer's load. I'm a footballer. I play for the famous Fluminense, don't you know? And all the rest of it. Uh, and then it would be, and then he would take out the players and then they would be in the really top restaurants and in the bars and the nightclubs. And then they would start asking him to do all this stuff. And then his network started that now he's got influence. Kaiser's Network and InfluenceLouis: He's got cultural influence amongst the whole city. Um, but then obviously, as soon as you start playing with the football, he was terrible and they had to kick him off, right? Um, but

Javier: only fake your injury so many times, right? Like,

Louis: but he would move. He would move. So then he would have one real card and then, um, he would then fake up other cards from other clubs because he knew that would work. So he was like, well, you know, this isn't digital ID, right? You know, with that we have all these days, this is the days where you could probably just, um, copy it.

Speaker: And make your own. So then he would do that and then that would get you into the club. But then you'd only need one or two players to recommend a coach or a scout to say, well, look, he's worth giving a go. Right. Um, and then he would try his next trick and then, um, he would just move from club to club to club really, really regularly. mafiaLouis: Like, he didn't care. That's why he totted up so many clubs. He had over like 30 clubs, you know, around the world. Um, and then, and then, um, //AD BREAK//Louis: And that's how Carlos Kaiser invaded the professional football world in Brazil. But if he plans to keep this ruse going, he's going to some defense. And that coverage came in the form of the brazilian mafia. We;ll get into it, after the break.

Kaiser And The Mafialouis: Carlos Kaiser conned his way into many clubs. at some point, the players and managers had to know he was a phony. But sometimes, they didn't seem to care.

Speaker: And certain clubs, they really took to him. So, I mean, the famous story with him is a club called Bangu, um, which at the time was in the, in the Serie A in Brazil, uh, the top, top division. They were a very small club, uh, historically, but at the time they were owned by a guy called Castor de Andrade, who is, uh, or was the most dangerous man in Brazil. And he, uh, was the head of a, an illegal gambling game called, uh, Jogo de Bicho. The Origins of Jogo do Bicho Louis: Um, and Jogo do Bicho is, um, an animal sort of gambling game played on every street corner in Brazil. It was, it was set up, uh, in the early 1900s, um, um, uh, as a lottery to do with Rio Zoo. Uh, and, you know, Jogo (jo-go do bicho) do Bicho is an illegal yet popular Brazilian lottery where players bet on animals. each animal is linked to a set of numbers, with the winning animal determined by the official lottery's last digits. Instead of placing bets through the official government lottery, people are betting in the black market through Jogo do Bicho. It's an underground system run by illegal bookmakers and the mafia. If you got the right animals that day, you would win the numbers and all the rest of it, but it's still illegal in Brazil, but it's still played in every street corner. So Castro run that alongside a lot of other things. Jogo do Bicho is often linked to organized crime and corruption, including involvement from the Brazilian mafia and other criminal elements. Since the game is illegal, it operates outside of government regulation, creating an opportunity for underground networks to control and profit from it. Over time, powerful criminal organizations have taken over parts of the Jogo do Bicho operations, particularly in major cities like Rio de Janeiro. These groups often manage the logistics of the game, handle the money, and ensure payouts, creating a highly organized structure behind what might seem like a simple street-level betting system. Castor de Andrade - BANGULouis: Castor de Andrade was leader of all the main bicheiros of the city of Rio de Janeiro,[2] and had more than 100 policemen and a number of public servants, prominent politicians, and judges working for him. Castor was also very involved in the Brazilian Carnival and in soccer— Um, um, and you can take your guess as to what those would be. Um, uh, and, but Kastor loves two things in this world. Well, he'd lost a lot of things. Kastor is very charming, uh, individual, but he, um, he, he particularly loved, uh, carnival when he run, um, uh, a famous samba school called Mossy Daji. Uh, and the other one was Bangor when he'd taken Bangor all the way to the top. Kaiser's Antics at BanguLouis: Castor de Andrade was also very involved in the Brazilian Carnival and in soccer—he was the major sponsor of Bangu Atlético Clube and even called the "owner of Bangu", Um, and Kaiser got invited into Bangal, um, did his usual came in, um, bought in, uh, all the fun, all the party used to bring a bus full of women to training. Let Castor loved him because he would start sorting things out for Castor and running errands for him and all those sorts of things.

The Infamous Friendly Match Incidentlouis: Um, and then it comes to the, the, the time after a couple of months in that they've got a friendly match.

Speaker: Um, and, uh, Kastor wants Kaiser to play. He's fed up with him being injured. And so, um, he gets the coach to find him the night before and cut the Kaisers in a nightclub. And, um, he says, you've got to be, you've got to play tomorrow, but don't worry, you'll be on the bench. And he said, but you know, I'm injured. This is outrageous. This is breaking Brazilian law and all the rest of it. He was very good, very quick with his, his chap. Um, and, uh, and he said, look, you just got to be there. He's he's Dr. Kastor. You know, what happens if you cross him and, you know, Ergo, the insinuation is you won't be around the next day if you don't do what he says. You know, he's a dangerous man for a reason.

Javier: Right.

Louis: and, uh, uh, he's on the bench and they go to nail down very quickly. And then Castor Dean Durage rings up the coach from the stands and says, I've had enough of this, get cards, get our star striker on the pitch. Now I want to see him. So. Kaiser's filled with anxiety, um, and he's been sent up to warm up to go on. And he's thinking, I can't do this. This is terrible. I'm going to be caught here. You know, you see how bad I am. I'm out. I've lost my ruse here. I'm actually enjoying it, this place. I like it. And so he's running up and down the sideline, warning up and he hears some fans. Swearing him, singing and swearing him, saying he's terrible and the rest of it. Um, so he thinks, he senses his moment, he climbs the fence, jumps over the fence and punches the main fan in the face. And then the referee comes over, breaks it all up, and then sends Kaiser off the pitch. So he's not even on, he's been sent off already for causing, you know, bringing the game into disrepute. And so, he's caused this havoc. Um, this is all to show that he's not any good at football, right? You know, he doesn't, you know, most people would, might have gone on there and just had a better game. But he's so worried about it. He ends up in the dressing room at halftime. Then heavies turn up, uh, and they're about to, you know, really go for him.

Speaker: Kaiser's Quick Thinking Saves the DayLouis: And before they even get a chance to speak, and this is always the way with Kaiser, he's already worked out what to do. And he starts saying, Doctor, Doctor, I love you so much. And your friendship means everything to me. And I hope you've really enjoyed my time here. And I know you must think the world of me now, and I would accept me if you sack me today and send me away. Um, but I just wanted you to know that what those people were saying about you was wrong. You're not a drug trafficker and you didn't kill those people last week and I had to defend your honor so I'm absolutely disgusted. And cast a thought about it, smiled and then gave him a two month contract extension

Javier: Which is mind blowing.

Louis: um, and, and I, it was just, there was, and there was so many little scan every day.

Speaker: There was a scan for him, like, whatever level. Didn't matter what it is, so that's a fairly major one. The Aftermath and Rogério de AndradeLouis: Look, I mean, during the process of this, I mean, Castor's, um, business is now in the hands of his nephew, Rogério de Andrade, who now, you know, is a fairly significant figure in Rio. Um, and we got wind that he knew that this was being filmed. Um, and I was working with, there's a female journalist, uh, who's superb in the film, Martha Esteves. Um, and she got a call whilst we were like researching, uh, all these old newspaper articles, um, and it was from his personal assistant and I said, Well, what do we do? Like, I mean, that's fairly serious. Like, you know, um, how do we go with this one? She said, You've got, you've got your teaser tape, right? You have a, you know, you think as you said, yeah, send it to him. you know, like, there's just, there's not, there's not pretend that we're not doing anything else. Send it to him, you know, and so we sent it to him and, you know, that was a fairly nervous hour. I'm not going to lie. And, um, uh, and, uh, we got these voice messages back from him. Basically, he was delighted. He said it was sensational and he loved it. And it was, it was brilliant. Because I guess.

Javier: story!

Louis: This is a great story and because I don't think it was a particularly well known story, um, and Um, you know, it, it, it showed off the best bits, I guess.

Speaker: Um, so, we then knew we were kind of okay because, and then we tried to get him in the film at the end, but he couldn't make it because of a schedule clash in the end. Um, but, um, yeah, it, it just cheered everybody up. And then since then, Glover made a, Three part series on Dr. Castor and I haven't actually watched it yet. I've been sent it a few times, but apparently there was a load of, um, uh, chatting in the Brazilian press about it because they were saying, well, this is one side of Castor, but what about, you know, things like Kaiser, uh, and all the rest of it. So he would, yeah, it was, it was just kind of mad. And, and like, there was just other opportunities as well. He'd be walking down the street one day and this doesn't make the film because there's just like, we, we did 72 interviews, right. For this film.

Kaiser's Media Manipulationlouis: Um, and the, the research, I've got boxes and boxes of stuff, but like, there would be newspaper articles where, um, there'd be a, um, he, he famously had a load of, um, work in France, uh, within football, uh, and signed for a club called Ajaxia, um, and Kaiser walked past, just happened to be walking past the French embassy one day, and, um, there was, uh, a load of Greenpeace protesters, um, Basically blocked everything.

Speaker: And there was something to do with nuclear testing. Right. Uh, and Kaiser manages to get in the paper and in all of the news items that day, you know, the local press, the national press, all the rest of it about how it's terrible, the French has been stormed by these Greenpeace protesters. And his line is, look, I'm just trying to get my visa so I can go back to play for this club in France, which he's not playing for, by the way. Right. Um, um, but quick as a flash, he's got his name in the press. Several newspapers, all the news, uh, all the news BTs that are being played out on the news shows that day. And he's one of the things saying, well, you know, you know, that disgusted person, like people can't do all that shit. He's, he's been that guy, but he's the good looking footballer. It's like, well, I'm just trying to be a footballer and go back to work, you know? And like, I mean, I care about the earth, but at the same time, what about the working man and all this sort of stuff? So any opportunity he could to get his name front and center, did, he took it and he's the best at it,

Javier: But that's like a great trait for a con artist, right? Where you have to think quick on your feet. How can you turn a situation around, leverage it, and take advantage of it? And, and he was brilliant at it.

Speaker: Reflections on Kaiser's LegacyJavier: But I guess my question is, you know, now that you started putting the pieces together, this story was never told. It was probably told at dinner table conversations. But, and, and it was all whispers and, but no one really put it together until you did. How, now looking back, do you think that the, the football clubs and the managers that he fooled or were involved in the story, do they have resentment towards him or do they, uh, look back and think, Hey, you know, we were in on the ruse too. It was all fun. Like what was their reaction?

Louis: So, um, I think a lot of people didn't want to take part in the film, but it wasn't because they'd been tricked, it's because of what Kaiser brought to the party, if that makes sense. And a lot of these guys are 40s, 50s now, um, didn't want to be in, didn't want their wives seeing the film with, you know,

Javier: Right?

Louis: recreations of what Kaiser was like as a person.

Speaker: Um, Um, I think a lot of people, so his currency, he never stole money off anyone, or if he did, it would be very minor, but there's no, no track record of him going and defrauding people of thousands of millions of pounds. What he wanted was the currency to keep up his pretense. So, uh, and it was, it was a, he was doing it with us all the time. Um, and it was, I give you this small thing. I want some, one small thing back. Right. And, uh, for them, it'd be, I sought you out with this lady, or I sought you out with his party. Carlos Alberto Torres, for instance, said he had more. Influence in Rio de Janeiro and he did. Torres is, um, you're probably one of the top five footballers in Brazil of all time. So for him to say that, you know, he said he couldn't get a dinner table on New Year's Eve. Couldn't do it. Kaiser could, he could get him the best thing or the rest of it. But he couldn't, you know, people wouldn't believe it was him for the first, for a first instance or whatever it was, but Kaiser was the guy that could sort it all out. So I think Kaiser helped a lot of people. Um, I think he, uh, sorted out their problems. Um, and. I think he took from them for sure, you know, identity for one, but even the people that really didn't like him that much or had something to get north, even the people that didn't really, um, had had more taken off in than they felt comfortable with. Couldn't hate him because I think they're respected. How he'd done it and all of those sort of things. We actually ended up working with a guy called professor Kevin Dutton, who's a professor of, um, psychopaths and con men at the university of Oxford. Uh, this guy is friends with Frank Abagnale Jr. And Howard Marks. And he said, uh, and he, we had to do it to get the cinema release. So we had to have like a special feature to go alongside of it and for the DVD and the rest of it. And he said, um, uh, he's the best con man of all time, but he's not a psychopath. Um, because he managed to keep up for 26 years. And he then had to go and speak to a load of other people as well. And he said, I can't find anyone who really hates him. Usually in these stories. Um, someone gets really hurt, um, and no one really gets hurt, and I'm sure there must be some people at some time in his life, you know, um, and, you know, you're only talking to a limited pool of, I should imagine, hundreds of thousands of people he's interacted with. Um, but he said the beauty of Kaiser was that, um, he kept it up for so long, like his story does genuinely span all this time. Um, and then, yeah, so is no, no one really, really hated him that much, you

Javier: And was anyone ever really fooled? I mean, even while all this is happening when he's

Louis: Well, I think, no, I think people went along with it. Um, there were certain football clubs that weren't happy to help us. Flamengo were like, no, we don't want anything to do with it. But then we got sort of, we got proof that he was there really. Um, um, I think. It can happen in Rio de Janeiro because of there's a thing called Carioca, right?

Speaker: Which is, um, someone from Rio and they have, uh, traditionally a certain way or Ginga, as they say in Brazil, way of moving, way of being where it was a bit late. They're really good at storytelling. They come in the life of the party when they're there and you can forgive them for their, you know, trespasses and all the rest of it because of their charm and their wit and all the rest of it. Now, obviously. You know, that's a stereotype and all the rest of it. It's kind of what it is for karaoke. So I think it could happen in Rio because there's an expectation of that. And this is where the story got really interesting and, and, uh, telling it because we were told lots of hundreds of different stories about Kaiser. Uh, the main ones were all told perfectly, as I said, and then you're trying to work out how to piece it all together and what's really true and what's not, and then what you realize about the whole place is that it lives on folklore and storytelling. And that's what charms people. And then, and then once you have that, it's about taking all of those stories, putting it in a narrative that brings people in, charms people, but to the rest of the world. And that you set this whole thing in a place where it is. And so that's kind of, that's kind of how he did it. He could, I don't, as I say, I don't think this could, even though he did play at clubs in Sao Paulo and all the rest of it, but once he's in the football community. Um, uh, I don't think, I'm not sure, it definitely wouldn't happen outside of Brazil. I'm not sure it would happen in Manaus or Recife or anywhere like that. I think it could happen in Rio, in that place where these stories come from. The Documentary's Impact and Kaiser's HealthJavier: it's it's an incredible story, but you know It took a turn for me like towards the end because you have this larger than life character I mean he's living the life of a a the best athlete, but also maybe the best celebrity in the world. I mean, he has everything he ever wanted. And then all of a sudden, you know, that, lifestyle can only last for so long. And his. Life now is so different, right? Like the way he is, you alluded to the fact that his health is not so great right now. And can you tell me about that? And like, is, is he having like the ultimate midlife crisis where he's looking back at his life because he lived such a great life and thinking, wow, you know, it's all downhill from here. Yeah.

Louis: uh, without revealing too much about twists of the film or the rest of it, Um, we're making a documentary, not a drama, um, and you've kind of got to keep interest up to hold a 90 minutes or two hours or a bit making, right? So you've got to be, you've got to be very rich in terms of. Storytelling and acts on the rest of it, and as I said earlier, like we were told a lot of stories, but the sort of main ones were kind of told word of word from everyone, and we didn't know what was true and what was not, because a lot of these things, there's no archive for one of the rest of it, and some people were adamant they happened, and some people adamant they didn't, and all the rest of it, um, and then at the same time, we were being given the runaround by him, um, and we always sensed that there was something else there to pull out a little bit, And eventually we confronted him with, you know, some realities that we had found out and it kind of broke him really.

Speaker: Um, and it, it, that's when I knew we had a real film because, and the story was, and I really got the whole point of what this is because here's a guy who's been, I mean, he's, he's just turned 60 actually the other week. And he's lived all of his life. So when, when we were filming him, he's like early fifties when we were filming, like 53, 54, um, for all of his life, he's lived a lie. Um, and he's never had to front up to that. Um, and also at the same time, all of his friends that he was. Looking good and being with, you know, it's great to be around in the, in the eighties and nineties because they're really famous and he's exiting all the parties that they can access and they're all having a great time and everyone looks young and lovely and all the rest of it, but then there comes a point where everyone ages, um, and then life takes a turn. So not everyone wants to do, have that lifestyle anymore, including yourself. Um, but then obviously, you know, even though footballers weren't as well paid back in the day, they're still doing all right for themselves because he never really had any money. So you've got to, what, what, what do you do when you can't be a fake footballer anymore and you can't pretend to be a fake footballer anymore? Like, you know, at the end of, by the time he was sort of late thirties, he couldn't really do it anymore. Um, and so his life had had to change. Um, and you know, you see it now. I mean, I, I dunno about you, but I see it now. I'm in my early forties now and I'm not culturally relevant anymore and I'm not in the hottest parts of town and I'm not doing all these sort of things. So there's a bit of reality that you have to come to yourself here and, and this film, I guess, was the second win for him. Um, but then when you're confronted with like, well, Hey, what's true and what's not all the rest of it, um, I think it kind of hurt him, you know, um, and, um, and then I realized what, what is, what is this whole thing about? The Nature of Storytelling and TruthLouis: And it's not about the truth, but it's about, do you actually need characters like this? In our society, in who we are, do you need these mega storytellers that do these crazy things? Do you seek to be around people that can live a life you never can? Um, and I found that fascinating because, and that's why people like, I mean, you run a series called Pretend, right? Um, I think people like these films because they're doing the things you would love to do. But you can never imagine doing, you know, you know, you just, when it came to the push comes to shove, you wouldn't actually go through with that risk because you know, it's, it's likely to fail. Um, and that's, that's, and that, and that's life in general. I think people love the stories of people making great success in that, especially I have nothing because they've gone for it even with anything's against them or the rest of it, they've risked it. Um, but so.

Javier: of us will not run out and punch a fan in the face to avoid playing a game and being caught, you know, like that's the length that some of these guys go through, right?

Louis: Yeah, exactly. So, and then, and then the story took on a whole, whole thing, because if you were to make this story and when did it with, okay, you're making a documentary, uh, and this is quite a big point really, because what is a documentary? Um, um, uh, and people expect, is it, is it people telling you facts?

Speaker: Is it people showing you real life? Um, there's an element of truth with the documentary. But then, this whole thing, we didn't know what was true and what wasn't. And then you work out the truth doesn't really mean anything. It's just what people believe of their own truth.

Javier: How do they feel at the

Louis: Yeah, exactly. And then at that point, we, we had, we, I never wanted to know, in the end.

Speaker: Because the whole, that was to misrepresent the entire story. The story is, the power of a story, you know, he could tell a lie three times and it becomes the truth and becomes so powerful that everyone else in the world believes it. Um, and everyone, everyone repeat it. And then that power, the power of that story can do make such an amazing world. I hope you enjoyed this story as much as I did. You can stream Kaiser! The Greatest Footballer Never to Play Football on Amazon Prime. Louis Myles also has a new documentary out titled, "Mighty Penguins' It follows the players of Brentford Penguins, a team made up of players with Down's Syndrome, and their families as they prepare to be the guard of honour at a Premier League match. It's a funny, heart-warming film about the transformative power of sport. The film PREMIERED at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2023 is currently doing the festival circuit and is not yet streaming. MUSIC (2-3 SECONDS)SHOWNOTESLouis: So that's it for today's episode. Next time on PRETEND... we're going to talk to a man who got busted for insider trading. he made his company over a million dollars.

Tom Hardin: what did I actually get to that million? It was 46, And at 29 years old, that was the price of professional suicide. When you think about your entire career, potential earnings. 46, 000 really just at the start of my career.

Speaker: 29 was what I threw it all the way for. What happens when greed takes over your life and you get busted. Not all white collar criminals are bernie madoffs. Most of these offenders throw away their lives for a few thousand bucks. So what happens when they get caught? They have no where to go. But did you know, there's a white collar support group. jeff-grant_1_10-02-2024_111932: People find us at all different stages. Some people are, find us in their two years before they're even arrested. Some people find us ten years after they've come home from prison.

Tom Hardin: That's right. A support group for con artists and the likes. That's next time on PRETEND.

Speaker: Professional rejection happens to all of us, but it can feel really overwhelming and isolating to keep getting rejection after rejection, after rejection. That's why I created this show. Thank you for your interest. Thank you for your interest is a show where people just like you and me come on and share their professional rejection stories. Turning their most memorable thanks, but no thanks moments into places for connection and humor because rejection sucks, but you don't. Along with my co host each week, you'll hear stories that are heartbreaking, hilarious, hellish, or a combination of all three. My boss said, well, you've changed since you've had a baby. I was told that this, this promotion was never real. They just completely ghosted. Plus, we'll talk about how many rejections we've received, trends we're seeing in the job market, and whatever else is on our minds that week. Thank you for your interest is available wherever you get your podcast. I am moving on. I'm totally fine.

Louis: Um, and then it kind of didn't matter. And look, I mean, we were making this before Trump turned up and all the rest of it, and then it was kind of, yeah, yeah. Bolsonaro and all of this sort of stuff. And, and, and then you're like, wow, you know, like alternative facts on the rest of it. So, yeah.

Speaker: Hi, sorry. No, I can't hear you. You've broken up. It's a connection issue. Can you hear me now? Hi. Yeah. You're breaking up quite a bit. Yeah, I can hear you. Should we restart the call? Yeah, you're breaking up. No, you're breaking up. No, you're breaking up. Oh no, you're back now.

Javier: Hey Louie, can you hear me?

Louis: Gotcha, yeah, I'm

Javier: Ah, I don't know what happened. I muted and then my whole system locked up on me. So I apologize, but we're, we were almost done. I had one last question for you. Oh yeah. I mean, it was really, we were wrapping it up. Um, real quick. Cause you mentioned Frank Abagnale, you know, I think that there's a lot of parallels between this story and Frank Abagnale, except Frank Abagnale story wasn't real.

Speaker: Kaiser story was mostly real, you know?

Louis: Frank Abra and Al's story, if you look at Catch Me If You Can and, uh, the exec of this film, Kaiser, actually was, uh, one of the people that worked on Catch Me If You Can. Um, and that's the script, right? Um, like he did the wire fraud, Frank Abra now, but he didn't get on the plane and do all those sort of things.

Speaker: They wrote that for Hollywood to make it seem really good. Kaiser did a lot of this stuff. Kaiser really risked a lot. So it's kind of like a real

Javier: Well, but did you know that 90 percent of what Frank Abagnale says he did, he didn't actually do because he was in prison the whole time.

Louis: He did the, what he did, he did bits of wire fraud, but most of that movie is not, you know, he wrote a book. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Javier: I did a whole expose on him. That's kind of like what I'm known for actually. I, I, um, but, um, so, so I guess I wanted to wrap it up and just ask what's next for you.

Speaker: Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsJavier: I mean, what, what are you working on these days?

Louis: Oh, right. Uh, so, um, I've been working on a, on a project with, um, a down syndrome football team, which, uh, got long listed for a BAFTA and Oscar this year. Um, and now we're developing it into a TV series. I've actually just started work on, um, My first con man story since Kaiser,

Speaker: um, um, which I have to be a little bit guarded on because it's not quite announced yet, but, um, it involves, um, less fun cons. Let's put it that way.

Javier: Is it a, is it a sports story or is it just

Louis: uh, it starts off in sport and then goes off into very big, elaborate cons involving nation states, uh,

Speaker: American journalists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, and I thought I'd never do a person story again after Kaiser, but there was enough in this one to,

Javier: Never say never, you know,

Louis: yeah,

Javier: um, that's, that's fantastic. And I, when does the down syndrome one come out or is

Louis: so that's been doing the festival circuit. It premiered at Tribeca last year. So it's finishing the, finishing the circuit now and then we're just in the final bits of negotiations to get it onto

Javier: So it's not streaming yet. Right.

Louis: Not yet, not yet, but I'll send you a, I'll send you a link for it.

Javier: And I'm going to push people to watch the film. I watched it on Amazon prime, but, uh, what, what would you, what would be your preference?

Louis: It depends where you are in the world. I believe it's in, uh, in the U. S. It's on amazon and I don't know if apple still do stuff, but you know google play and all those things It's available

Javier: Okay, I'll push it to them. I mean, you know, I want people to know that this is like, I'm doing this episode because it's such a fascinating story. It's not even a new documentary. It's just new to me and it's probably new to a lot of people. Um, so I wanted to, to make sure that everybody watched it, but I'm going to go ahead and stop the recordings.

Speaker: Um, and the way this works

Louis: Yeah. I know i've done it. Yeah. Yeah.

Javier: my computer is still locked up, by the way. I cannot even click on this. But anyways, just end the call and don't close the tab. Does it let you end the call on your end? I don't know.

Louis: Yeah, I can end the call here

Javier: Yeah, if you don't mind, end the call because my computer is actually locked up. So, I'm sure everything is fine with the recording.

Speaker: It's just, um, I'm having trouble on my end. I'm going to need to restart. So,

Louis: No, it's fine. I think i'm 100 percent anyway, so i'll but i'll Text me when you

Javier: Yeah. Hey, I'll email you and let you know when I got the file. But thank you so much, man. I really appreciate you taking the time off and tell you.

Louis: We'll do see you later. Bye. Bye