The Real Catch Me If You Can part 5

Speaker: All right. This is it. Today's the day. I'm in my Las Vegas hotel room testing out the gear before my ambush interview with Frank Abagnale. I'm armed with a 10 inch stick mic covered in a windscreen which we call a dead cat in the industry. It's pretty intimidating. I also want to make it crystal clear that I am recording. And no good confrontation interview is complete without video proof of it happening. So I placed my iPhone camera strategically placed at eye level. All right. Testing out the camera in the pocket thing. Yeah, that's perfect. Everybody keeps their camera in their pocket. Right. so if I go like this, all right, let's test it up. All. But let's back up a bit. Because I didn't just show up in Vegas hoping to stumble upon America's most beloved con artist. If this thing was going to work. I needed a plan. So, I ran it by Paula Parks, the flight attendent who you heard from in episode 2. Paula recently confronted Abagnale during one of his book signings. Paula Parks: he's gonna be speaking at the Louisiana business association or something like that. I said, uh, I'm gonna go. I said, what was he gonna do? I bought a ticket. I went I told Paula that I planned on doing the same thing. Going to Vegas

Javier: I was looking up to see if Frank had any speaking engagements coming up and he does in Vegas next week.

Speaker: And so I, yeah, so I bought a ticket. To go to Las Vegas for this conference, and I'm gonna try to get him to talk. And I, and because I don't think any journalist has actually confronted him, you know, has actually asked him, Hey, is it true? You were in prison for most of the time that you were supposedly running around the world, And, and, you know, I just wanna, I wanna see how he reacts. I Paula Parks: Javier:

Paula Parks: You know, I tried to get a newspaper reporter to be up there. When I confronted Frank, they weren't interested.

Speaker: Javier: I'll definitely let you know how that goes. I mean, hopefully I won't get arrested kicked out. I don't mind, but

Paula Parks: Well, if you do get arrested, call me and I'll start, uh, go fund me fun for you and maybe we'll get notoriety that way.

Javier: That that's very comforting. Thank you.

Speaker: So here's the plan. Frank Abagnale is schedule to speak at a tech confrence hosted at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. This week long conference features speakers like terry bradshaw. And if you know anything about Vegas, these venues are massive and swarming with security. I can't just sneak in, interview him, and get out. That would be too risky. So, I coughed up $800 dollars and registered for the conference. Shout out to all of my Patreon supporters for making this happen. Now, I have a legitamte reason for being here. But before I step foot in that plane, I wanted to call Mark Zinder, Abagnale's former booking agent, to get a sense of what to expect. +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): I just booked the flight and bought took us to this conference. That it's like an it security conference or something like that. And I'm hoping that, that, maybe after the event that as he's walking out, maybe I could ask him a couple questions, I'm not gonna be rude about it, but I'm gonna start with a compliment, Hey, you've really turned things around and, Now, how did you turn that corner? You know, like kind of butter 'em up a little bit,

Mark: Yeah. Uh,

Speaker: +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): and then I wanna hit 'em with like, Hey, so. Why do you keep telling people that you did all these things I doubt he's gonna answer any of my questions and maybe, and I even run the risk of maybe not even seeing him at all. Like, I don't know if there's like a backstage and or if he has a posse or something, you know, so,

Mark: tell, tell me, have a young lady. You would like him to meet.

Speaker: +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): Oh, oh. Oh, I see. I like bait. I gotcha. I, Yeah. that's funny. But what do you think, I mean, from traveling with him, do you think that he's gonna kind of sneak out or does he have a, a entourage with him or.

Mark: Well, I've never known him to have an entourage, but, but again, that was 40 years ago. Right. he, he's very personable and love, loves talk mainly about himself.

Speaker: And so, but again, this is all 40 years ago, +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): Yeah. Well, I think that if I could get him talking about himself, you know, and then kind of hit him when he

Mark: mm-hmm,

Speaker: he hadn't changed a bit. So I, I think that if, if he doesn't feel threatened at all, I think that, uh, I think he'll sit down and talk to you. I really do. +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): well, let's help. This is at the MGM, so it's kind of a big venue. We we'll see. It's a, I mean, I might go out there and just waste a bunch of money, but, um,

Mark: Well, um, I do have one bit of advice,

Speaker: right? I he's prepared, +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): Mm-hmm

Mark: and, and usually he'll say, oh, people are too embarrassed. and, and that's why they don't want admit that dash Ashley did this stuff I stole from him. And that's his that's his basic line

Speaker: is just too embarrassed. so just be prepared for that stuff as well. +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): I'm, I'm slightly terrified of what's gonna happen.

Mark: Yeah, no, no, no. You'll, you'll, you'll do fine. He's a nice guy. He, he, he really is just a general pussy cat. He really is.

Speaker: He's a nice guy. He just, you know, he, he loves to tell stories and he doesn't like to be called out as a liar. +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): Right.

Mark: Best of luck.

Speaker: +16154731950 on 2022-06-10 at 19.52 (Track 1): Take care. Bye.

Mark: care.

Speaker: Bye. Honestly, I'm not worried about Abagnale. I'm more concerned about crashing this conference and dealing with the casino's security team. Ah, I'll figure it out. You know, this was supposed to be the last episode in this series. The big finale! But who am I kidding. There's no way I can wrap up this story in one episode. This happens every time I'm in the middle of an investigation. The episodes go out in the wild, new leads and witnesses come out of the woodwork, and I go deeper into the rabbit hole. So buckle up... We're discovering new stories about Frank Abagnale never heard before. I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND. Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. Aetna We'll get back to my confrontation with Frank Abagnale in LAS Vegas in just a bit. But first, lets tie up some loose ends. After getting busted for stealing from a kids summer camp and ripping off his own girlfriend... Abagnale heads over to an orphanage in Houston and poses as a social worker. Yeah, I still can't get over that one. It's not clear why he went to an orphanage. But if you believe Abagnale's version of the story, he was working at the kids home as an undercover agent for the FBI.. I'll let Abagnale explain. I was on an undercover assignment as an, in this particular assignment, I was a social worker. At this institution and supposedly had an MSW degree from Columbia university. I was from Virginia. At a totally different name. Pressumably this is one of his first undercover gigs with the FBI... and he broke the numero uno rule of any undercover agent job. You don't let anyone know your super dooper top secret identity. Come on. Everybody knows this. Most of the time when I was on an assignment, I didn't get involved with people. I always left very abruptly. Like I had a death in the family or something when it was time, it was over. But not this time. He really screwed everything up. Abagnale says a girl working at the orphanage caught his eye. That girl's name is Kelly Welbes (pronoucned well-bees) I took her to the park and you never break protocol. It's something you absolutely never supposed to do. But I took it to the park and I said, I have to leave. And she was very shocked by that. And I said, I'm leaving today. I need to tell you that, first of all, this is not my name. I don't have a master's of social work. I didn't go to Columbia. I I'm not from Virginia. This is my real name. And I was there because I worked for the government and I was on an assignment and my assignments over. So she looked at me and she said, So. I guess. You're telling me you're a federal agent. And I said, not by choice. Kelly Welbes will soon become Mrs. Abagnale. And you know what they say... a woman can make an a average man great, and a great man pretty average. I don't thinik anyone really says that. But according to Abagnale, it was Kelly who tamed the wild con man. Frank Abagnale: 40 plus years ago on an undercover assignment in Houston, Texas. I met my wife when the assignment was over. I broke protocol to tell her who I really was. I didn't have a dime to my name, but I eventually asked her to marry me against the wishes of her parents. Of course, I'm pretty sure Abagnale was not working undercover at an orphanage. But with all of his lies, there's always a grain of truth. Here's what we know. Kelly Welbes, his girlfriend and future wife, does have a masters degree in social work from Rice University. Jim Blackmon, Abagnale's parole officer, stated that Abagnale had a girlfriend from a local university create him a phony master's degree. Could that girlfriend have been Kelly Welbes? hmm. One can only speculate. But either way, if Kelly has a master's degree in social work, it make sense they met an the orphanage in Houston. Let's take a quick detour for a second. Frank Abagnale is typically very consistent with his stories. He often recites his tales word for word. But sometimes he deviates. about 19 years ago in a grocery store in Houston, Texas, a young girl decided to become my wife. I was stocking groceries. I didn't have a dime to my name. I told her I had been in prison and that anyone could send me back to prison at any time yet she became my wife. She changed my life. Wait... I thought he met Kelly while working undercover at the Orphanage? Now he says he met her while bagging groceries? Why did he change his story? I guess stocking the shelves doesn't sound as sexy as an undercover agent working at an orphange. So the story evolved.

Frank Abagnale: I bet back in the day, when he was making all this up, he never envisioned that 40 something years later, a little cuban with too much time on his hands, surfing a thing called YouTube, would fact-check everything he said.

Speaker: Anyway, back to what really happened at the orphanage... When his parole officer, Jim Blackmon, found out that his offender was masquerading as a socail worker, he made Abagnale quit on the spot. Instead of turning him in, his parole officer, Jim Blackmon, told me that he had Abagnale move into his garage so he can straighten him out. And for a while there, it appears like Abagnale changed his criminal ways. But come on, it's Frank Abagnale we're talking about here. Abagnale landed a job at a health insurance company called Aetna. But it didn't last very long. Court records show that the company ended up suing Abagnale for check fraud. Yeah, he tried scamming his own employer. Did he really think he was going to get away with it? Foretunately for Abagnale, Aetna didn't press criminal charges. (music) It's now 1976. Remember J.R.? The girl Abagnale was dating before he moved on with Kelly Welbes? Well, J.R. is working at a department store one day, when court officers show up unexpectedly and serve her with papers. She's been sued for unpaid credit card charges and loans...charges she says Abagnale made under her name without her knowledge. Abagnale walks away and never looks back. (wedding march) Why? Because he found his partner, his bride, his ride or die. Marrying Kelly Welbes marks a new chapter in the con man's life. Did his new bride believe all the lies? Or did she have a hand in creating it? We can only speculate. The reason why I say this is because something happened around this time. Somehow, this ding-dong who writes bad checks using his own name and tries ripping off his own job suddenly becomes a mastermind con artist overnight. In 1977, almost a year after marrying Kelly Welbes, Frank Abganale opens up his own consulting business. He books his infamous appearance on To Tell The Truth. It was like magic. All of a sudden this guy went from being a petty theif to this genius con man. How did that happen? Now it's 1978... decades before going viral was even a thing, Abagnale was trending. Trying to capture the momentum from his short appearance on To Tell the Truth, Abagnale producess a 17-page press kit. This thing is nice. His signature is embossed on the cover, there are full-bleed pictures recounting his fabricated tales of posing as a doctor, a pilot, a lawyer and a professor. What an incredible story... a story that landed him on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. You know how hard it is to book an appearnace on the Tonight Show? It's not an easy feat. (add interview with Bev) So, How did this happen? Just the other day, he was shacking up at a kids camp stealing camera equipment. And hanging out an orphange while he was on parole. I wanted to know how a relative nobody caught the attention of the most famous TV host in America. So I called up Bev Jedynak (JedNak) a publicist who at the time worked for Martin E. Janis and Co. - a public relations firm.

Bev: I was the person I was the one that actually lined up the pre-interview Got him scheduled for that April appearance on the tonight show

Speaker: Bev's former public relations firm is a heavy hitter. They represented Former President Nixon and both Bush presidents. Again, how does Abagnale, a petty theif get paired up with a public relations agency like this? Bev Jedynak says that by the time Abagnale landed on her desk, the reformed con man was in partnership with a company called Telecheck Services.

Bev: I was just the kid working under the primary account executive and the telecheck,

Speaker: She doesn't know with 100% certainty but she suspects that Telecheck must have heard Abagnale speak at a luncheon. They had hired Frank to be a spokesperson cuz Frank had told them, Hey, your system is so great. You're the only one I would've been able to beat. I never would've been able to write all these bad checks and they thought it was a great deal. When Bev landed him the spot on the Tonight Show, the goal was for Abagnale to sneak in a plug for Telecheck. Bev met with Abagnale and his wife Kelly to go over everything. But something didn't feel right.

Bev: And somewhere during that conversation, he leans in and he said something with a look on his face. That to me was like, this guy is still a con I, you know how you you're talking to someone and they, all of a sudden the look changed. And it was just my guts that this guy's still a con man, you know, it was like, huh.

Speaker: And I'm talking to a friend of mine who was a police officer in New York. And I said, yeah, I'm gonna go do this thing with this guy who says he's a con man, but, but you know, would you see it be really has a record? So he goes, well, I'm not supposed to do this, but he was a Sergeant. So he was able to pull the rap sheet and his words to me were, what are you doing? Hanging around with scum? Like this. just like what? Then he's reading the rap sheet to me. And I remember writing it all down. And I went into the, to the man who actually owned the agency. And I said, do we really wanna, you know, be doing this? He said, don't worry about it. He said, you know, he says, he's a con. So if he's a con, you've got the tonight show, just get the, you know, get out there and make it happen. Despite her gut feeling, the Carson appearance was a go. my boss is telling me, oh, you better go out there and be with him, you know, make sure he says, telecheck well, you know, how am I gonna do that when he's on the show with Carson, but I go out and I get out a date early and I tell Frank, you know, I'm coming out. When are you gonna get there, Frank? Oh, I'll be coming in that night to Houston.by the way, Kelly was with him almost all the time at this time. So I get out there the day before the taping and I'm in California. And I talked to Frank on the phone. He goes, I'll meet you at the studio. And my gut's telling me, no, you're not gonna meet me at the studio. I'll meet you at the airport. And we can go to the studio together. Cuz at that time this was at 72. You could still go into an airport and ride up to a gate. So there I am in lax right at the gate when he comes off in the look on his and Kelly's face when they saw me was like, oh shit, what is she doing here? So, of course they're being very nice in the car and all that. And then we get to the tonight show and we get in the greening room and we're all in there. So he gets on the show. He got almost 15 minutes on that show. I mean, it was the last segment, but it was a long segment. He's yucking up a storm getting laughs. And not once does he mention tele. And I'm sitting in the green room thinking, oh shit, I'm going to hear it about this. You know, he's got 15 minutes and of course this is taped at five 30 in the afternoon. The client's calling everybody saying, you know, tonight we're gonna be on tonight show. Well, I have to call the client and say, we just got done with the taping. He never once mentioned telecheck well, needless per say, that was like a huge, huge thing. Listen, listen to the segment. Someone in there he's talking about the bad check. (insert carson SOT)

Bev: And about writing bad checks, they get to the whole subject of bad checks, which is exactly where Frank should have said. Yeah. That's, you know, that's one of the reasons why telecheck, you know, I work with telecheck cuz you can't do it now. I,

Javier: Or, or, or telecheck is the one that I couldn't.

Speaker: Bev: He could say, yeah, there's this service that I, that I wouldn't have been able to be today. It's I think it's called telecheck that would've been, that would've been the price of admission. He didn't do that. He, frank Abagnale was getting paid for this. He had one job and that was to mention Telecheck. And it wasn't like he ran out of time. Johnny Carson kept him on for multiple segments.

Javier: And do you think he just, you think it was just, it slid his mind?

Bev: No, I think, I think in hindsight, I honestly truly think that Frank figured this was his ticket to the big time he didn't wanna see me there cuz he had in his mind what he was gonna do. And my being there was at, because when he was surprised to see me there, that was a red flag.

Speaker: Even to me at the time. I mean, my gut said, oh, he's not expecting me. It was a great career boost to be able to get somebody on the tonight show. I mean, it it's fun to tell people I did that and I was there and it was Johnny Carson, you know, when it was at its a day. But it also is horrible that that show is what propelled everything else that hurt everyone else. Because without the tonight show, he would've just been getting little odd. Here and there you know, telecheck fired us and, and, um, well, you know how it is in the agency business.

Javier: I, I don't, I mean, your ass was on the line that

Bev: Yeah, and it was, So in

Javier: what did you tell Frank wards? When he, when

Bev: Well, I told Frank he, Well, whoa, you know what Frank said to me in the car? He, we of course bear in mind, you know, I'm a young PR person, so you don't really argue with anybody at my point in my career, cuz

Speaker: I'm not, you know, an executive yet. I'm just the, the junior account

Javier: Right, right.

Speaker: So you were at the, in the cab and he asked you, He

Bev: He

Javier: do you think telecheck is gonna be mad that I didn't

Bev: You think telecheck is gonna be mad that I didn't mention them. And I think, I don't remember my exact words at all, but I think I said something I like, well, I don't think they're gonna be too happy about it. and he said, oh, well, so, and I mean, so that was it.

Speaker: And so I go back and I call my boss and my boss makes me call the client,

Javier: but you must have been pissed right after that, that

Bev: oh, I was, I was like, Practically in tears. When I got to the hotel room, when I had to call the thing that was awful was when I had to make the call and tell them, yeah, we were on, we got 15 minutes of time, not one.

Speaker: Did he mention teller check? That was the worst. But here's my real question. How does this small time crook who writes bad checks under his real name? Get connected with someone like you. Bev: Javier:

Bev: Oh, he,

Speaker: oh, simply very simply. I mean, the only thing I can think of Ana was doing talks before the various Houston business associations. And my guess is that telecheck heard him there and probably talk to him afterwards. Now, how did he get to the, to, um, to tell the truth? I don't know. he's a, he's a grifter. He probably ran into someone who heard the story. Thought it was great and got him on there. Kelly

Bev: Or Kelly May have reached out cuz at that time he was married to Kelly. So I'm sure Kelly was around and she was pretty smart. She was a smart cookie. So I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Kelly didn't put him on there. I can't say that for a fact, but it would not surprise me.

Javier: you are kind of nailing it right there because before to tell the truth, he was just a small time crook and all of a sudden, boom, he's on to tell the truth. He's on Carson.

Speaker: He has this whole story about the doctor, professor, uh, lawyer thing. But before that, that didn't exist, but it all kind of coincides with Kelly when he met

Bev: And I think, and I think it's Kelly, cuz Kelly was between the two of them. I mean, she is very, very bright. and I got the distinct impression that she sort of was running his career.

Speaker: Javier:

Bev: And she was the brains behind taking Kelly was act, in my opinion, she probably was a pretty good PR person in taking a story and, and creating something out of it.

Javier: Yeah, she took a, a, a big rock and shined it up.

Bev: This was at the beginning. This was the beginning.

Speaker: And I

Javier: would be no Frank a now.

Bev: there would be no frame. I mean, there might have been, but I don't know. I mean, there might have been, I, you know, if I had never sent the pitch to the cartoon show, would they have gotten to 'em? Cuz I'm the one that made sure the pre interview took.

Speaker: And then set up the interview time. I know that it was me. I mean, ,I know it was me. Like Alan Logan, the author of the Great hoax on Earth says, this guy just shot out of a canon. Before this, no one knew who he was. No newspaper ever printed a story about any of the things he says he did. He came out of no where. After his Carson appearnace, everyone wanted a piece of Abagnale. Break When we come back, we're going to talk about Frank Abagnale's longest con. Mark Zinder Like a moth caterpillar molting, Frank Abagnale formed a new more sophisticated appearance, while crawling out, and leaving his old swindler skin behind. He posed as a doctor, an airline pilot, a college professor, an FBI agent and a lawyer. Frank Abagnale was suddenly everywhere there was a camera or a stage. Frank Abignail is a millionaire in his own. Right? One of the good guys. He is a con man turned straight. Yeah, a con man turned straight. At least that's what he wanted the media to believe. Once a con man, always a con man... Abagnale's turned his 17 page press kit into a manuscript, and that manuscript turned into the New York Times best selling autobiography Catch Me If You Can. Abagnale WAS ON FIRE. He needed to capitalized on his new found fame. As a speaker, he could make a fortune. But he didn't know where to start. So he found Mark Zinder, a young speaking promoter straight out of college.

Mark: I used to travel with him.

Speaker: Uh, he, he would, he would do a hundred speeches, 200 speeches a year. And I would go with him to these speeches, But like everyone who crosses paths with Abagnale, he was bound to get burned. Mark Zinder says he was banboozled by Abagnale, not once but twice.

Javier: During their first year working together, Abagnale gave Zinder an impossible challenge for a first time speaker.

Mark: If I booked him at least 50 times that first year he would gimme a $5,000 bonus

Speaker: And Zinder did it. He booked him 50 times. But when he went to get his 5 thousand dollar bonus, he says Frank Abagnale told him... "not so fast." I'm not exactly sure what he said in word for word, but it was basically, I'm not paying you.

Javier: you called him a con man. Right? How did

Mark: man. Right? Call him MCC conman. I call him MCC conman.

Javier: he take that? By the

Mark: well, not that was, that was the final nail in the coffin

Speaker: And so I came in the office the next day and that he had written a note on my desk that he didn't wanna work with me anymore. And that, uh, and that we were done. And then he Did pay me the $5,000 bonus, but that was, that was the end of our relationship. Mark Zinder and Abanale went their seperate ways. Abagnale started booking his own gigs. But after a year, things started slowing down and he was struggling to find a stage to tell his story. He needed Mark Zinder back. This is the second time Mark Zinder says Abagnale screwed him over. But this last time, nearly left Zinder living on the streets. Let me explain, when Frank Abagnale came crawling back, Mark Zinder was representing multiple speakers and performers. He didn't need Abagnale, but he decided to take the reformed con man back. It was during this time that Mark Zinder applied for his talent to speak at the NACA conference, which is the super bowl for anyone hoping to break out in the college speaking circuts. This was a big deal and it was going to cost Mark Zinder a lot of money. So applying to get a talent at this conference is very expensive. So you're very judicious on how many you can apply.

Javier: He submitted three of his top talent.

Speaker: Mark: Hoping that one comes through. I get the letter. Congratulations, Mark Alexander. We have chosen all three of your, of your

Javier: Oh,

Mark: all three, all three, but we don't want Frank on the speaker stage. We want Frank to be the keynote after dinner speaker at the opening ceremony, not 20 minutes, the entire 60 minutes in front of all 3000 students.

Speaker: I'm gonna make a fortune in three days, right? I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna book these, this talent that I'm gonna fill their calendars. I mean, it's all right there. So it's the day before, I've got television sets with videos, I've got audio. So you can listen to his speech. I've got full page ads in, in the magazine. We we've gone all in I've borrowed money from the bank. , I've gone all in. So I'm setting up and the students are starting to arrive. And these kids walk up to my booth And go, Hey, you know, where's Frank. I went, you know, he'll be here tomorrow. I'm not, you know, I'm have you heard hurt, hurt, heard what? Oh, nothing. No, no, no, no, no, no. heard what says, oh, we're students that I forgot the name of the university and we're in the criminology department. And Frank came and spoke at our school, the one school he booked the year before he came and spoke at our school. And, uh, we went to our professor saying, Hey, if we go listen to this guy speak, can we get extra credit? And the professor said, no, but do some research on the guy afterwards and, turn in the paper and then I'll consider it. And so these are the kids in the criminology department that did the research to discover that he was a fraud. right.

Javier: And this is like really the first time it's

Mark: Yeah, this is, yeah, this is, this is now happening. It is 24 hours before this conference starts.

Speaker: Right. I've got so much invested in this. Javier:

Mark: So I go to the payphone, which is what we had back then, you know, and I'm calling Frank. Every every five minutes, every time I'm just calling and he won't, he won't answer, he won't answer. He won't answer.

Speaker: And I wasn't sure who was telling the truth. I wasn't sure if it was the kids or if it was Frank, I still wasn't. Sure. And so he finally picks up You know, once again, this was 40 years ago, but I remember in detail when my son was born.

Javier: your talent, you know? Sure.

Speaker: Sure.

Mark: I remember in detail word for word, this conversation with Frank, this, this is this, this is not a false memory.

Speaker: So he picks up and I say, I know. And he says, I know, you know, right. That's when I finally realized when I, the kids are telling the truth, right. And then he says to me, it'll take, it'll just take me $10,000 for me to solve my problem. Click was I just threatened

Javier: mark. Zender interpreted this as a death threat, $10,000 to hire a Hitman and take care of the problem. eh, I don't know how serious this threat was, but it doesn't matter because that's the way mark Zender perceived it.

Speaker: suddenly word got out that Ana pulled out of the event and then Zander's other two actsdecided to pull out two

Mark: He says to me, mark, not a good time to be working with yet. He's a NoShow

Javier: Oh my God. This is like the day before the

Mark: this is the day before And the comics. the comp same thing. I don't think it's a good time to be associated with you. They're a nohow. So a few hours earlier, I was on top of the world. and now, boom, cause I've spent so much money.

Javier: Oh, I can't

Mark: Oh God. It's of course not.

Speaker: Like we talked about in the previous episode, Mark Zinder didn't see Frank Abagnale again for another 20 years or so when he bumped into him at the airport. That's when Mark Zinder says Abagnale apologized for something that happened with Mark Zinder's ex-wife. Frank says, Hey, you know how Fran do it? Well, Frank, that, that didn't work out said, I always meant to apologize for that. for what? I didn't say it, but apologize for what? Speaking rates

Frank Abagnale: After their split, Abagnale found his footing and made a lucritive speaking career.

Speaker: By the time the movie came out, Abagnale was charging a lecture fee of $15,000. Today, Abagnale reportedly cashes in 2o to 30 thousand dollars per speaking engagement. It said so on his website. Not bad for an hour worth of work. He basically walks on stage, spouts out a bunch of lies, and cashes 30,000 dollars. What a racket! When I heard him speaking in Vegas he mainly focused on cyber security and only alludes to his past crimes. Can you imagine, thousands of conference attendees, salivating, waiting to hear the real story behind the hit film, and instead he shows them a bunch of powerpoint slides of third party stats. That's like going to see the Rolling Stones play live and they never play Satisfaction. What a let down. Think about it... he's talking to a room full of cyber security experts about cyber fruad using research he personally didn't conduct. Let that sink in.

Mark: When we come back, we're going to tackle the biggest mystery of them all. Does Frank Abagnale really work at the FBI? The answer is not very clear.

Speaker: Break? (music) The FBI

Mark: Since 1980, Frank Abagnale claims he books hundreds of speaking gigs a year. And there's only 365 days a year. When he's not on the road, Frank Abagnale claims he's working full-time for the FBI. How does he find the time?

Speaker: Remember, according to the story we've all admired for years, Abagnale was bust by the FBI at the age of 22 and then was pulled out of prison so he could start working for the government agency.

Frank Abagnale: Then they started realizing I'd be a great asset to teach at the FBI academy. So I've, I've been at the academy 40 years. I've taught two generations of FBI.

Speaker: Here's Abagnale telling the Oklahoma State Univeristy president about his FBI career. And what do you teach? What, what, uh, everything's changed? You know, when I first went there, it was all about counterfeiting, forgery, embezzlement financial crimes. Uh, now the last 20 years, all about cyber crime.

Host: what was it that the FBI saw in you that they thought they could use? Because really you just were really good at

Frank Abagnale: coning people. Right. And absolutely. So the first five years I just did undercover. And what the whole asset that the bureau saw in me was that they could literally say to.

Speaker: I need you in the next two weeks to take up this information. You're a Lieutenant in the army. You've been in the army for this many years. Your expertise is this particular missile, and I need you to go to the base and I need you to find out this information. They knew that they could permit me in any position that I could fake long enough in that position to find out whatever they wanted me to find out. This claim of working for the FBI is the most puzzling part of Abagnale's story. Because I don't believe it's true but I also can't prove it's not. The first thing I did was contact the FBI and asked them point blank if Abagnale works for them. It should be a pretty straight forward answer. The FBI replied to my fact checker Kate and said they would get back to us. Here's the thing... we know the FBI wasn't chasing Abagnale for years. The FBI deals with big dollar interstate crimes and other investigation involving our national security. They don't have the time or resources to deal with a huckster who cashes bogus checks using their own name. When Reporter Ira Perry looked into these claims, he tracked down a former FBI agent named Robert Franck. Robert Franck is an agent who's name gets thrown around to add credibility to Abagnale's claims. When Perry asked retired agent Franck if he was chasing Abagnale, Frack said, "I've never met the guy." "That damn Abagnale uses my name all over the place." Clearly this former agent was annoyed by this. Shea

Frank Abagnale: Another FBI agent Abagnale often refers to is Special Agent Joseph Shea. Shea by the way, is the inspiration for Tom Hanks' character in the movie. Here's Abagnale talking about Shea on the Jordan Harbinger show.

Jordan: Is it true that you were close to the FBI agent that ended up catching you?

Frank Abagnale: Yeah. His real name was Joe Shay.

Speaker: S H G a was a wonderful man. He and I were friends for 30 years. He didn't want his real name used in the movie was on the set during the making of the film. Shay probably didn't want his real name in the film because he didn't really do any of the things protrayed in the movie. According to Abagnale, Shea was the agent chased him when he was 16 and finally caught him at age 22. In reality, agent Shea didn't even know abagnale even existed until days before his arrest. Remember, the only time the FBI got involved was after Abagnale cashed those ten bogus airline payroll checks when he was 22. There was no chase. Author Alan Logan was able to find a newspaper article that states that Abagnale was only in Georgia for 2 days before he was arrested in a motel by the FBI. It was a 2 day chase. Not 6 years as he famously claims. According to Abagnale, after his FBI arrest, he was sent to the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary and escaped. He claims Agent Shea was so frustrated by the con man, that he decided to quit the bureau and retired two weeks later. The truth is, Abagnale never escaped prison and shea continued working for the FBI for another seven years. Unfortunately, Special Agent Joseph Shea has since passed away. But I wonder, what he would think of all this? Afterall, Agent Shea reportedly visited the Catch Me If You Can movie set. He also walked down the red carpet during the movie premiere. Surely he knows that the film based on a true story is all mostly made up? Maybe he knew this and chalked it up to the fact that it's a hollywood movie. Of course it's exaggerated? We'll never really know. The FBI's response

Frank Abagnale: So did Frank Abagnale really work for the FBI?

Speaker: Who in their right mind would go on national television and impersonate an officer? Isn't that illegal? If it's not true, wouldn't the FBI immediately shut him down? Impersonating an officer

Frank Abagnale: Title 18 United States Code section 912 states in relevant part:

Speaker: “Whoever falsely assumes or pretends to be an officer or employee acting under the authority of the United States or any department, agency or officer thereof, and acts as such, or in such pretended character demands or obtains any money, paper, document, or thing of value, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.” However, from what I can tell, very few actually go to prison. So what do ferderal agents think about Abagnale? I spoke with Ira Winkler, a former NSA agent who had a run in with Abagnale. Ira Winkler +14439940245 on 2022-07-20 at 21.09 (Track 1): I began my career at the national security agency. 1994, it was the first major cyber crime where a Russian broke into Citibank and stole $12 million. And I was on one of the investigators on that.

Frank Abagnale: Today, Winkler is retired from the NSA and works in the cyber security industry, the same industry Abagnale claims to be an expert in.

Speaker: Ira Winkler +14439940245 on 2022-07-20 at 21.09 (Track 1): in the cyber security community, there are a lot of people who don't like, you know, being on the same platform as a criminal. I had an encounter with him to put it mildly.

Javier: And what, what, what happened? What went down.

Speaker: Ira Winkler +14439940245 on 2022-07-20 at 21.09 (Track 1): Well, it was ki so here's the thing One of my good friends was Howard Schmidt. Howard Schmidt was a cyber security advisor for two presidents. During the time of Winkler's encounter with Abagnale, Howard Schmidt was working for the Obama Whitehouse. I had an encounter with him to put it mildly.

Javier: And what, what, what happened? What went down.

Speaker: Ira Winkler +14439940245 on 2022-07-20 at 21.09 (Track 1): Well, it was ki so here's the thing One of my good friends was Howard Schmidt. So anyway, I was speaking at an event in Singapore, AAL was a keynote speaker there and I was speaking. And then what happened was I was flying back. I believe it was a Friday. After the event and I was in at the time Delta one, which is their first class. And I look at, as the flight was, you know, preparing to take off. And I noticed ABAG Nally was two seats behind me or so. during Frank Ana's talk, he mentioned Javier: Ira Winkler +14439940245 on 2022-07-20 at 21.09 (Track 1): I mean, during the talk, he mentioned how his sons worked for the FBI and he's very proud of his sons working for the FBI. That honestly would shock me to tell you the truth. he mentioned that and he also mentioned how he's proud that he works with, you know, proud to work for the FBI now. And I'm thinking there's no way he works for the FBI. given that, I mean, he travels the world making high paid speaking engagements. The FBI does not give people time off to travel around the world. I used to work for NSA as a government employee. They don't just randomly say, Hey, go out and make $15,000 giving a talk. I was curious because I wanted to frankly, ask him about the difference on how he mentioned how the FBI got him out to support their efforts. So I was gonna approach him about that. Then I thought, okay, let me start with a soft cell. And I approached him and the first question I said, excuse me. Um, you know, I saw your talk. I noticed how you said you'll work for the FBI. I go, what's specifically, did you do for the FBI? He's like, oh, I was a special agent. I. Really, I go like a full, you know, he's like, yeah, full, you know, I'm a, full-fledged. I'm like really? And then I sat down cuz I knew I was getting complete bullshit, but then I thought, Hey, let me double check this just in case maybe I'm wrong. I go back to my seat and from the seat I text Howard Schmid. I go Howard, I'm on a plane with Frank AAL and he is telling me that he is a special agent for the FBI. Do you have any feedback on this? Howard Schmid text back to the effect. I don't remember the exact words it was to the effect, what a fucking liar, that guy can't tell the truth for a life of him. There's no fucking way. He works for the FBI. And Howard was not the type who would easily curse. I conacted Jerri Williams, the host of FBI retired case file review. Jerri Williams was a real FBI agent. I wonder what her take is on all of this?

Javier: so you'd know a lot of agents you've been. This field for a long, long time. And I have to imagine that the name Frank Abignail has crossed your mind a couple times here and there throughout the years. Right?

Jerri Williams: As an agent who primarily worked fraud and corruption type cases. Absolutely.

Speaker: But Jerri says she never really heard his name until after the movie came out. So yeah, I'm gonna watch it and I'm going to, at least initially believe if they say it's a true story, it's a true story.

Javier: But you professionally have never encountered ano

Jerri Williams: Oh, not at all. I've known that he has spoken before some of the FBI academy groups, which is a. A a citizens group, not directly connected with the FBI, but, but definitely, partnered with the FBI.

Javier: But, when you were in Quantico going through training, did, he did Frank Anell ever teach any of your ethics classes?

Jerri Williams: No there would be no need. There would be no need to have anybody from the outside, teach an ethics class. When we have, you know, trained and skilled and certified agents who actually have done the investigative work, come to the class and instruct us.

Javier: But, but Jerry, he's not from the outside. He claims that for the last 40 years, he's a supervisory special agent for the FBI. He, he wakes up Monday morning from his Charleston island home and drives to the airport, flies to DC. Works Monday through Friday at the FA FBI and then flies back to Charleston at the end of the week.

Jerri Williams: And my question to you is.

Speaker: Javier:

Jerri Williams: why would we need Frank ABIC now to do that for us? Again, we have trained agents who have studied, who have participated in undercover cases who have spent years investigating many of the top con men in the world.

Speaker: Why would we need Frank to come in, to work for us and to do some of the things that he's claimed But to your point, I mean, Frank Abignail claims that he was chosen by the FBI to go on all these undercover missions because you know, he's such a great impersonator, but, but now, like you've heard in this podcast, I mean, he wasn't a great impersonator. He was just a guy with a cosplay fetish who liked to dress up in a pilot uniform.

Javier: why would the FBI ever use a non-agent in a undercover role? So like, As an informant or a cooperating witness. Tell me about.

Jerri Williams: The FBI. I. Sometimes it's very difficult for the FBI to know what's going on in a criminal enterprise. You know, it's difficult for them to get an undercover agent in or get, uh, wire tap going on. And so the only way they can learn. The crime is to have the cooperation of an informant or a cooperating witness.

Speaker: Somebody who is involved in the crime in some way or another, who can come back to the FBI and say, this is what's being done. This is what's being said, and these are the methods that they're using.

Javier: Well, I'm gonna give you a scenario. Okay. And you tell me if you think that this sounds like something the FBI would do. Okay. So abil claims that, that he has such. Great photographic memory that the FBI director himself, Clarence Kelly directed him to go undercover so that he can memorize the components of military hardware and infiltrate a base as a Lieutenant.

Speaker: And Ana says that, Kelly's instructions, the director, the FBI director's instructions were okay. You're a Lieutenant in the army. You have been in the army for many years. Your expertise is, is this missile. I need you to learn all of it in two weeks, and I'm going to send you to this base. And I want you to find out what's going on in this particular area.

Frank Abagnale: He knew that no matter what assignment he gave me undercover, I could go do it. Whether it was a scientist at a lab in New Mexico, whether it was a doctor in a hospital, he knew that I could get away with it, make it believe people believed that I was that person without any doubt. And that's how they used me.

Javier: And then Ana also says that, The director, Kelly also sent him on secret missions to a science lab in New Mexico. I'm guessing Roswell, but that's just me. What, what do you think? What do you think about some of these claims?

Jerri Williams: I call bullshit.

Javier: So, so none of that realistic.

Jerri Williams: again. I have to say, why, why do we need Frank to do that? When we have agents who could do that,

Speaker: and I can tell you one thing that can always be a clue. If anybody tells you that they got a, an assignment directly from the FBI director, right from the head of the FBI, you know, for a fact it's bullshit. It

Javier: It just never happens.

Jerri Williams: It doesn't happen that way. I mean, there's, so there's so many layers of, you know, the, your, your supervisor and the assistant special agent and the special agent and the unit chief and the section chief and the assistant director and all of these people.

Speaker: We're going to continue our discussion about the FBI in our next episode. But now, let's go back to Vegas, where I'm going to talk to Frank Abagnale mano a mano. That's next after the break. BREAKBack to Vegas So I'm here in Las Vegas tomorrow. I'm going to approach tra ABAG mail because, you know, Supposedly he was running around the world. He was a pilot, he was a doctor. He was an attorney, but it turns out that he was really in jail the whole time. His story is most likely baloney. So I'm just gonna walk up to him and show him his arrest records and see what he has to say. Wish we luck. I flew in the day before the event. You know, just to scope things out. While walking down Las Vegas Blvd, I got to thinking, do people even know who Frank Abagnale even is? I ran into two Las Vegas showgirls. You know, the ladies who walk around Vegas in skimpy outfits covered in rhinestone jewlery and topped with a colorful headdress made of ostrich feathers. Yeah those girls. So have you ladies ever heard of Frank Abignail? No. Have you ever heard of the movie catch me if you can? No. No, it sounds familiar. Yeah. It sounds familiar. It sounds so familiar. Nope. That's not good. I started getting the feeling that maybe I'm covering a story about a has been who has no relevance in today's culture. So have you watched the movie catch? Maybe we can. Yeah. it's uh, Frank Ana's story. Yeah. And was it based on a real story? Yeah. Yeah. You, so how much of that story do you think is true? Um, I'd say probably 80%, 80%. What if I told you that he made up like 90% of really the whole time he was doing all these adventures, he was actually sitting in jail, really his arrest report. It turns out that maybe the Vegas Showgirls were in the minority. Most people I spoke to in Vegas bought into the legend of Frank Abagnale. As I kept walking down the stripe, I ran into this lovely british couple. have you ever heard of Frank ABIC meal? No. Have you ever heard of the movie catch me if we can. Yeah. Yeah. It's from the United CIA, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's that guy who basically, um, oh my God. I can't remember. So he basically. Density fraud the entire time. Doesn't he? So he goes from acting like as a pilot to a lawyer to just various other careers. . And, and was, uh, was that real or was that fake? Like, was that they sound true story? Ricky said it was a real story. Didn't he? Yeah. He said it was a real story. Wasn't it? Yeah. Well actually it turns out that it's completely bullshit. Is it? Yeah. You made it the whole thing. Yeah, really? He was in jail the whole time that he was supposedly doing all these fantastic crimes. Yeah. He's a good storyteller though. Isn't it? so have you ever seen a movie catch movie? Can absolutely. I love Leo. Of course. Yeah. What, what is that movie about? Um, he was a pilot. Who was a total scammer and literally cut checks illegally and was just the most atrocious human being, but like made it out and he's hot so he could get away with it anyway. he's gonna be speaking at the MGM grants tomorrow, but the whole story's baloney, he made the whole thing up, but like everybody thinks it's true. Dope. I love that. So I'm gonna confront. But I just wanted to, like you are. I totally am. But first, I gotta scope out the place. Tomorrow is the big day, but if I'm going to do this, I need to figure which way the speakers enter and exit the state. The plan is, after he finishes speaking, I'll rush to the side of the stage. But will he exit left or right. I have a 50/50 chance of getting this right. My gut says he exits stage left. But the moment he walks out that door he can escape through a door I don't have access to. My stomach is sick. There's a good chance, I won't be able to get him in time. I may have flew out here for nothing. Now, I have to figure out a getaway plan. I'm at the event and I'm looking for quick exit getaway. This shit goes out. Wish we like. If by chance, I do get him, which I will, I just didn't know it at the time, I'll need to find a way out of the casino. Which if you've ever been to one of these places, you'll know it's like a maze with very few exits. It would take me a good 15-20 minutes to quickly walk out of there. By that time, I'm sure to get caught by the MGM Grand security team. I searched and I searched, and FINALLY I found an emergency exit that leads to the back of the casino. I've done all the planning I can do. For Now, I just have to sit in my hotel room, and practice how to say Abagnale Which is struggled with during the entire recording of this series. Frank AGA AB epic mail? Sorry. (Music) This is a real catch me. If you can, today, I'm gonna, I flew out all the way to Vegas to approach Frank abil. Let's see if I could actually get him. I'm enter the grand ballroom and I'm not going to lie... my heart is racing. (INSERT CLIP 99893 Welcome to the Jungle) I take as close as possible to the side doors. The lights dim, and frank Abagnale's super hero music starts pumping through the speakers. A very warm, welcome to our guests renowned. A crime and fraud prevention, expert, the selling and protagonist of catch me. If you can, Frank morning folks, it's a pleasure to be here this morning. Abagnale enters the stage. But not from the direction I was anticipating. Should I change my plans? After the speach, should I go stage right instead of left? Ah, crap. I don't know what to do. He speaks for about an hour. And during his keynote, he barely mentions his criminal past. After his speach was over, he sat down and had a fireside chat with, get this, a former FBI agent. And I'm asking myself, wouldn't this former agent know that the man in front of him is a phony? If what Abagnale just said on stage were true, wouldn't this he have taken Ethics training with Abagnale at Quantico? I couldn't believe it. My nerves were starting to calm with each blatant lie that came out of his mouth. Okay, he's wrapping it up. It's go time. I stuck with the original plan and rushed to stage left. But he wasn't there. So I'm freaking a little bit. What if I made the wrong choice? So I open the backstage door and take a peek. And there he was yucking it up with people backstage. I took a deep breath and composed myself. I reminded myself that he needs to think I'm a friendly interviewer covering the event. Not some 60 minutes/Mike Wallace wannabe armed with all my gotcha questions. So I smiled. And braced myself for when he opens the door. Hey, Mr. Rapid, I'm doing a podcast covering the event. He stopped, we shook hands, everything is going according to plan. such a transformational story. I mean, how, it's almost unbelievable. How did you make that change? I know you talked about it on stage, but we would look to hear it. Um, I was very fortunate, first of all, that. Uh, after serving time in France and then Sweden, and then the United States, uh, after my four year stint on, uh, in the United States, the federal government offered to take me outta prison on the condition. I go to work with an agency of the government help educate law enforcement officers about fraud. Yes, I got him talking. Sure... he's giving me a canned answer but so what. I have to be patient and let him finish. By the way, you can watch all this unfold on my tiktok channel. I shot it all on video. I don't believe I was a changed person coming out of prison. I, I think that having met my wife. and I told her about my life and where I was. And I eventually asked her to marry me. And again, the wishes of her parents, she did, uh, she gave me three wonderful sons, seven grandchildren, and that's really what changed my life. It was all about that. One more, one more. So for six years we invaded the, the FBI, uh, pretending to be a pilot, a doctor, a professor. But how were you able to do that? If you were sitting in prison the whole time? Uh, no. When this was all bef I went to prison for all those things, growing to work with the FBIs after I came out of, out of prison. But I, I have, uh, your prison records right here and clearly they were, it took place when you were. Supposedly doing all these adventures came over a period of a period of time. Uh, not predicted in the movie. It had nothing to do. I didn't write the book. I didn't make the movie. I didn't have anything to do with the play. Right. Uh, those are people's views of what I did or, or didn't do at that time. And you said you never hurt any of the little guys. Did you ever repay the parks or mark zider for his money or anything like that? Mark zider was a former employee of mine who I fired 40 years ago. Uh, he went to and paid a ghost writer to write a book. Uh, I guess he has hard feelings about that. Uh, I hope that I'm judged on what I've done with my life, not what I did with my life 50 years ago. Well, I appreciate it appreci. I appreciate it. Take care. Bye. Yes. The moment I pulled out his prison records which clearly show how he was in locked up from the age of 16 to 21... the room got tense. All the people surrounding him didn't have a clue what was going on. The clock was ticking. But let's see if you caught the most revealing part of his answer. I didn't write the book. I didn't make the movie. I didn't have anything to do with the play. Again... let's hear it in solo mo. I didn't write the book. What???? He didn't write his own autobiography? Did Frank Abagnale just conceed that his life-story is all made up? Wow, even I didn't see that coming. We're going to dive deeper into this response. Plus, we spoke to a family member who paints a disturbing picture inside the the Abagnale household.

Heather: he locked my grandma in like the closet for extended amounts of time.

Speaker: His father made him have sex with a prostitute, like in front of him. So he was pretty damaged from that experience +15202684825 on 2022-08-15 at 12.25 (Track 2): That's next time on PRETEND.