The Real Catch Me If You Can part 6

Speaker: Hey, Mr. Rapid, I'm doing a podcast covering the event. This is audio from my interview with Frank Abagnale in Las Vegas. The interview only lasted around 2 minutes. But boy oh boy. He packed a lot into those two minutes. If you watch the video, which I posted on YouTube and TikTok, the con man calmly answered all of my questions. He held his hands together, smiled the whole time... it seemed like he was pleased to talk. In fact, everyone around him thought it was a normal interview. That is, until I busted out his prison records and waved it in front of him. That prison card is the smoking gun. It proves without a doubt that he was mostly in prison from the ages of 16 to 21. Making it impossible to live the extrodinary life he so famously claims. This series is not just a story about a con man who lied about his past experience. No, it's much bigger than that. This series is about correcting history. For decades now, we've celebrated this man's life, like he's some sort of hero or something. He's invaded our living rooms in countless tv interviews. He's had Leonardo DiCaprio play him in a movie. John Williams even scored his superhero theme song. And his life has even been turned into a musical that one review said "is an amazing true story with a happy ending we all need." But it turns out that America's favorite con man, is really just another petty criminal who's never really paid back all the money he stole. But if we zoom out, this is the story of the spread of mis information. Where politicians and other grifters have taken a page out of Abagnale's book and learned that if they repeat a multiple lies over and over, most people won't question it. And they can actually get away with it. Frank claims he evaded the FBI for 5 years. They couldn't catch him even if they tried. Sure, he admits he finally got arrested, but in his version of the story, he came out a hero working undercover for the FBI. I may not believe his account, but I do think he won in the end. The guy is in his mid-70s, lives in a multimillion dollar island home, makes a pre-school teacher's salary every time he takes the stage. He made it! And besides his alledged victims, no one seems to question his success. He fooled us all. And he would have gotten away with too if it weren't for this meddling kid and his scrappy friend from Belfast. The Irish guy, btw, is Alan Logan the author of the Greatest Hoax on Earth. We're on a mission to set the record straight. So that when you ask someone if they know who Frank Abagnale is, Instead of it was based on a true story, they'll tell you that he made it all up. Abagnale may have been on the run for the last 50 to 40 years, getting away with biggest lie of them all. But guess what... We caught him. FWA event organizer: I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND... Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. (possible intro) Hey, Mr. Rapid, I'm doing a podcast covering the event. I'm going to play the ambsuh interview in its entirety... and I'm going to interupt the tape every now and then to point out a few things you may have missed. such a transformational story. I mean, how, it's almost like unbelievable. How did you make that change? I know you talked about it on stage, but we would look to hear it. Um, I was very fortunate, first of all, that. Uh, after serving time in France and then Sweden, and then the United States, uh, after my four year stint on, uh, in the United States, Um, by the way... there was no 4 year stint in prison. He spent 3 months locked up in a French and 2 months in Sweden. And when he returned to the states, he only served 2 years in a federal penetentiary in virginia. So not 4 years... it was more like Two years and change. the federal government offered to take me outta prison on the condition. I go to work with an agency of the government help educate law enforcement officers about fraud. There's no proof the federal government ever recruited Abagnale. In reality, he was hanging out at a children's summer camp stealing camera equipment, then for reasons that can't be explained, he got a job at an orphanage posing as a social worker. Abagnale told me that the government job wasn't meant to last. Uh, it was just for the period of my parole, which was about five years. And then that would, that obligation would end, uh, when the five years were. The bureau asked me to stay on. I said, I would stay as long as I was allowed to do other things outside of that. And I've done that for 46 years. So I owe the, the opportunity to them. Now he claiming to be a federal officer... a pretty serious crime if he's lying. BTW, I haven't encountered a single agent who has taken his FBI course at the academy. Uh, but I truly, I don't believe I was a changed person coming out of prison. I, I think that having met my wife. And to keep in mind that I had no money. I had no job. I was on federal parole and I told her about my life and where I was. And I eventually asked her to marry me. And again, the wishes of her parents, she did, uh, she gave me three wonderful sons, seven grandchildren, and that's really what changed my life. It was all about that. Okay, the time for pleasentries has passed. It's time for some hard ball questions. Vegas con't One more, one more. So for six years we invaded the, the FBI, uh, pretending to be a pilot, a doctor, a professor. But how were you able to do that? If you were sitting in prison the whole time? Oh snap. I don't think he has a canned response for this one. His friendly smile melted right before my very eyes. Uh, no. When this was all bef I went to prison for all those things, growing to work with the FBIs after I came out of, out of prison. But I, I have, uh, your prison records right here and clearly they were, it took place when you were. Supposedly doing all these adventures came over a period of a period of time. Uh, not predicted in the movie. It had nothing to do. I didn't write the book. I didn't make the movie. I didn't have anything to do with the play. Right. Uh, those are people's views of what I did or, or didn't do at that time. You heard right. he had nothing to do with the musical even though he was at the premiere. He had nothing to do with the movie even though he claims he lived with Leonardo Dicaprio for an extended period of time. Remind me to post that audio later. It's hysterical. And get this... he had nothing to do with the book. The book! His own autobiography that the publisher Penguin Random House describes as the bestselling true story of the world’s most sought-after con man. A true story! So if Frank Abagnale didn't write his own autobiography, then who the hell did? It turns out that Abagnale pinned the resposibility of writing the book on his co-author Stan Redding... claiming Redding exaggerated somethings. Here's a statement posted on his website: "I was interviewed by the co-writer only about four times. I believe he did a great job of telling the story, but he also over-dramatized and exaggerated some of the story. That was his style and what the editor wanted. He always reminded me that he was just telling a story and not writing my biography." But of course, I have this soundbite from 1993 of Abagnale claiming authorship.

Frank Abagnale: I of course, uh, back in 1980, wrote a book called catch me if you can the book sold a million copies in hardback, never leaving time. Magazine's best seller list for 15 months

Speaker: So which is it? Did he or did he not write the book? It's all very confusing. Of course we know this is BS because we have plenty of video and audio of him bragging about his escapades years before and after the book ever came out. There's to tell the truth, the carson show, and his talks at Google... I can go on. So who is Stan Redding, the co-author, of Catch me if you can? Redding was a veteran reporter for the Houston Chronicle magazine. Redding wrote a profile peice about Abagnale in the 1977 three years before Before Catch Me If You Can ever hit the bookshelfs. The magazine feature on Abagnale was lazy reporting at its best. Redding spewed Abagnales lies about being a pilot, a doctor, an attorney, and professor without ever fact checking to see if it were true. Whether he knew it or not, Redding basically helped Abagnale architect the myth. But let's not forget, months earlier, Abagnale was telling these same stories on national television. So, I personally don't buy the idea that Redding made this whole thing up. Abagnale is just using him as a scape goat. But I also don't think that Abagnale constructed this hoax all on his own. The question is, who helped him? Back to Vegas Back to Vegas. I only had a few minutes to get my questions out. And you said you never hurt any of the little guys. Did you ever repay the parks or mark zider for his money or anything like that? Mark zider was a former employee of mine who I fired 40 years ago. Uh, he went to and paid a ghost writer to write a book. Uh, I guess he has hard feelings about that. He didn't answer my question. Did he ever repay Paula Park's parents for stealing from their checkbook? Or skimming money from Paula's little brother's wallet who was working at a grocery store and didn't have much money to begin with? Paula Parks told me her family never saw a red cent from Abagnale. Did he forget? Did it slip his mind? What about Mark Zinder who almost went under when Abagnale left him high and dry? Or JR, his exgirlfriend who he left bankrupt. Or the Swedish family who he stold from. We can go on. You know, Abagnale famously claims that he repaid all his victims. here's that very incovinenet 1993 video again.

Frank Abagnale: A couple of years ago, I took two and a half million dollars out of my company's profits, and I returned every single penny of it to every airline hotel bank and person that ever lost a dime 15 years earlier today. Not one soul is out any money from any of the crimes that I committed in my youth

Speaker: Not one soul, but Paula Parks, Mark Zinder, J.R. his ex girlfriend and every other victim I've spoken to are still waiting for their money. Maybe it got lost in the mail? Back to my Vegas interview with Abagnale. The situation was getting tense. I sensed that I needed to wrap it up or things were going to turn ugly. One of the guys in his entourage tapped Frank on his back and they started getting ready to walk away. Uh, I hope that I'm judged on what I've done with my life, not what I did with my life 50 years ago. Well, I appreciate it appreci. I appreciate it. Take care. Bye. Yes. I had other questions like... Why were you hanging around at a summer camp and an orphanage? If you passed the Bar exam, why aren’t there any records of it? Is it lonely keeping up the lie? Do your kids know you're an imposter? But I figured it was time to go. I quickly started walking towards the emergency exit. But before I could leave, one of the conference organizers stopped me on the way out. FWA event organizer: Like the, oh, I'm, uh, I register for the event. I was just covering the event. Just different aspects of it for a blog podcast, you know, that kinda okay. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm um, can, This lady was shaking. Could it be because I caused an unexpected wrinkle to her event? Or was she nervous because she just realized that her company just paid this guy $20-30 thousand dollars to lie to their attendees? uh, just the, the approach to Frank Ana was a little bit unexpected. Oh, well I was just asking just, yeah, it's just that's sounds, I'm curious about, yeah, that would be something we'd have to schedule like individually. Oh, okay. Oh, I just thought I would talk to him while I was. Yes, no. She wrote down my name and sent me off on my merry way. Awesome. Cool. Okay. Thanks, Javier. Appreciate it. Have a chat. But honestly, asking a con man uncomfotable questions isn't illegal or breaking any rules. I was just a curious conference attendee. I briskley walked down three flights of stairs, made a right and pushed open the double doors of the casino. Thank god alarms didn't start blasting. But I wasn't in the clear. I still had to make it out of the property which seemed like a city block long. I crossed the street, entered the Parisian Village and disappeared into the crowd. It was time for a celebratory beer. When we come back, I'm going to talk to the man who slapped cuffs on Abagnale. What can he tell us about the myth. That's after the break. Second chance /FBI 32 years/ Pardons FWA event organizer: There are so many tall tales about Abagnale's life, that it's almost impossible to keep up. Here's a good one.

Frank Abagnale: I have turned down three pardons from three sitting presidents of the United States because I do not believe nor will I ever believe that a piece of paper will excuse my actions that only in the end, my actions will

Speaker: Pardon me? Did I hear that right? He said three presidents offered him a pardon? Oh really? Who? He never does say. Interpol by the time I was 21, Interpol in Paris classified me as a master thief. There are only 108 criminals who have ever been given that classification in the world since 1902. Today, there are only six living and I'm one of them. And at the time I was the youngest master thief in the world. When I was 21 today I'm 34 years old and still the youngest master thief in the world. By the way, there is no such list. The funniest feedback I've received so far on this series is... "So you're telling me the con man is lying?" Yeah I know right? But... it's important that we talk about this because this guy isn't a master thief. He's a master manipulator who is contributing to mis information that is currently unraveling our democracy. People like Abagnale distort the truth and as a result create two versions of reality. If we can't hold people accountable for lying then we might as well hang it up. Here's Jerri Williams, a retired FBI agent helping me unravel this mess.

Jerri Williams: The other thing that I always was skeptical about was his claim of being the youngest person on the most wanted list because as a. Spokesperson for the FBI. And I, and I did that for five years. I know how hard it is to get on the FBI's most wanted list.

Speaker: I mean, agents fight, you know, and, and, and really campaign to get their subjects on the most wanted list because it's a big deal. And the reasons that people are put on the most wanted list are because they pose a. To society. And so we wanna get them captured as soon as possible. but ranks. Situation doesn't fall for under either of those. I wish if it was true or not true, that there would be somebody from the FBI who would us know.

Javier: A lot of people have just kind of blindly gone along with his story. And that is probably the most baffling part of this whole story for me. And still today. I mean, I feel like Alan Logan and I have unearth, a lot of documents have proved that he's a fraud, but the only mystery remaining mystery to me is that the FBI.

Speaker: I've contacted them. They have yet to, to confirm nor deny that Frank ano has ever worked for them. And if he's never worked for them, like we suspect he hasn't they should just say it. Right. But they're not, Why do FBI agents believe?

Javier: the other day I'm sitting on the couch and I'm, and I get a message from an active FBI agent. Okay. Who's thanking me for putting the story out. He says, you know, this guy is a fraud. He told me that he actually, his boss at the FBI was thinking about hiring Frank Anell to speak at, at an upcoming event.

Speaker: And, and this guy's like, no, this guy's a fraud check out this podcast. So there there's still agents. There are agents in the FBI right now that still buy into his, his myth, you know, the mythology of Frank ano. And I don't understand why,

Jerri Williams: The reason is because FBI agents are people too. And so we're just like the rest of the public who saw the movie, and have seen him on as a, as an ambassador for a R P. He's their fraud ambassador he's was at some point, one of the host of their podcasts,

Speaker: About that... speaking of AARP... I reached out to them to find out if Frank Abagnale is still an ambassador at the organization. And I have yet to recieve an official response. But one of my listeners named Stephen Vogel, took it upon himself to contact AARP and they actually got back to him. A communication manager was able to confirm that Abagnale is no longer an AARP ambassador. They even acknowledge in a recent blog post that most of Abagnale's stories have been debunked. It turns out Abagnale may have been more of an embarrassador than an ambassador. But back to the FBI... . FBI Academy Frank Abagnale says that he doesn't want to be judged by what he did in his youth. He claims he's a changed man and is proud to serve our country by working for the FBI. According to Abagnale, the FBI arrested him, he served time, then out of great admiration, the FBI asked him to work for undercover for them at an orphanage. All this sounds very strange. I don't want to put words in the guy's mouth, so I'll have him explain.

Frank Abagnale: So when I finished working on the cover, the, the director then simply said, you know what? He needs to go to the academy and teach class so that every agent who comes to the academy. , they will, he will be their instructor in one of their courses and they will all know him.

Speaker: Joe Shay was my supervisor at the FBI. After I came outta prison, I answered directly to him. He and I were friends for 30 years until his death. Joe Shay was just one of 3 agents who arrested Abagnale after Abagnale was busted for cashing 10 bogus airline payroll checks. He was the inspiration for the Tom Hanks character in the movie. Shea died in 2005 at the age of 85 but the other two agents may still be alive. I wonder what they remember about the day they arrested Frank Abagnale? If I could get ahold of one or both of these guys, I can finally put to rest some of Abagnale's most blatant propoganda. Was there a prolonged chase between Abagnale and the FBI? Was the beauru looking into the sexual allegations happening at the University of Arizona? Was he really recruited by the FBI? If so, these guys should know. After all, they were the ones who put the cuffs on him. The three agents were Joseph Shea, deceased, Tom McKewon, and Al Brown all out of the FBI Atlanta division. The two agents, if they're still around, would be around 80 years old. Locating them will be no easy task. But with the help of some friends, I was able to locate one of them- Retired agent Al Brown. Al Brown

Al Brown: my name is Alan Brown. I go by Al I'm one of the, uh, three FBI agents who arrested Frank Ana.

Speaker: not only was Al Brown one of the agents who arrested Abagnale. He was the one who physically slap cuffs on him. This could be huge. The first time I called Al Brown, he wanted to go off the record because he wanted to clear it by the FBI first.

Javier: the reason I was a little hesitant to talk with you before I heard from prepl pub, they may say, Hey, I can't even talk with you, uh, uh, without their knowledge and approval and without Frank's knowledge and approval,

Speaker: cuz I also gotta stop in for Frank, uh, Ana, make sure he has no objection to my talking about him. Woah woah woah. Clear it by Frank? After that, I stopped the recorder like he requested and we agreed to circle back after he cleared it by the FBI and Frank Abagnale. Why in the world, would a former FBI agent have to clear it by the criminal he arrested? I was floored. What a disappointment. I am sure I'll never hear back from him again. Frank Abagnale is never going to approve of this interview. Oh well... I gotta move on. How did he explain himself to his sons? Honestly, I can't remember if I mentioned this on this podcast yet, but did you know that Frank Abagnale's son is a real FBI agent? Yeah, I thought it was just another made up lie. But this part is true. His oldest son, Scott Abagnale actually has a badge and a gun. And last time I checked, Scott Abagnale was a unit chief of the FBI's crisis negotiation unit. Pretty impressive. I wonder what Scott thinks of his father's claims?

Frank Abagnale: So I've taught at the academy now for well, over 35 years, I taught my son when he went through the academy, three generations of agents.

Speaker: Does Scott walk around the FBI office with his head hanging low, dying of embarrassment? Or does his dad in fact teach every agent that walks through the academy? What does Scott Abagnale really think of his fasther's past? Does he too believe these outrageous stories? Surely not, right? Also, I wonder when he first learned about his father's capers? Frank Abagnale spoke about this in the Charleston Home and Design Magazine. He spoke with Charelston Home + Design magazine https://issuu.com/chdmagazine/docs/chd_spring14_issuu/117 He said, when his oldest son Scott turned 10, he handed him a copy of the book Catch Me if You Can and asked him to read it. He told the boy, "Don't ask me any questions until you finish it." After his son Scott read the book, Frank asked him, "Do you understand that I am the person in the book? And that I did those thing? Do you understand what I do today?" And that was it. "My sons look at me as their dad." WAit, I thought he told me in Vegas he didn't write that book? But anyway.... Let's hear from Scott Abagnale. This is audio from an episode of AARP's the Perfect Scam. If you recall, the organization named Frank Abagnale an AARP Ambassador. Frank even co-hosted the podcast The Perfect Scam. Scott is an FBI agent welcome back to a, a R PS, the perfect scam. I'm Julie Getz. And with me today is of course our a, a R P ambassador and fraud expert. Frank ABNA Frank. It's always so good to see you. Great to be with you, Julie. Thank you. In 2020, The Perfect Scam featured an episode with Frank and his son Scott. Let's take a listen... We also have a special guest, someone that you know quite well, right? Yes. That's your son, Scott, who is the unit chief of the FBI's crisis negotiations unit. The epsiode focused on virtual kidnappings. Facinating topic. Scott. Welcome. It's good to have you on. Thank you very much, Julie, my pleasure Scott, before we dive into the details of how the FBI handles kidnappings in the us and abroad, can you please share a bit about your background? How long have you been working for the FBI? I've been with the FBI for a little over 14 years now. Um, and prior to that, I was an attorney. I was always interested in working for the FBI. And so when I had the opportunity, uh, it was more than willing to take it. Towards the end of the episode, the host asked Scott about his relationship with his father. Well, it really is a pleasure to have you both here in the studio with us today. It's certainly a very unique and special episode as it's the first time you've ever worked together. Have you guys ever wanted to work together? It'd be neat if we had a reason to, I suppose, but, but we haven't, we really haven't. Um, and, uh, this is, I mean, the first time we've even done an interview together, uh, about a shared topic, we have, uh, expertise in, well, I know our listeners would love to learn more about you both. Scott, when did you first learn about your father's past and how did he explain it to you? It was probably about 10, I think when I first started hearing about it and I heard about it from kids at school, actually. Well, honestly, kids were being really, uh, disrespectful about it. Um, so yeah, it was basically like getting teased, um, in the schoolyard. Um, but, uh, in the scheme of things that never really impacted me, I've never thought, uh, I had anything to be ashamed of nor did my dad given, uh, what all he went through to get to where he was at the point. I was a 10 year old. So you came home from school. Did you talk to your dad about it? What did he say? Oh yeah, no. He always sat me down and explained where it was coming from. It was very matter of fact. The host then asks Scott about the time his father took him to the FBI academy when he was 12 years old. Like a lot of kids are, um, I think, um, but, uh, it started to really get enamored with it when I was about 12 years old and it never, never. So, yeah. Frank, is this how you remember it? Yeah, he, he told me that he said, you know, dad, that's what I like to be as an FBI agent. I explained to him, it was very difficult back then the FBI was taking one and every 10,000 applicants. And of course I always was aware of my background and I thought to myself, you know, the FBI could look at this in two ways. They could say, well, his dad's done a lot for us. Maybe we should look at his son or the FBI could say, no, I don't want his son to. An FBI agent, Or maybe the FBI would looked at it a third way... gee I have this talented, bright potential agent but his dad is going around telling people he's a federal agent. Hmmm? there is nothing that's happened in my life. And there will be nothing that will happen in my life that was greater than seeing my son become an FBI agent or more amazing that someone from my back. We'd bring a child into the world and that child turn around and become an FBI agent And, you know, I've had the opportunity to teach at the academy for almost four decades. I've taught two generations of agents. I taught Scott's class when he went through the academy. He taught his own son? Are you guys hearing all this? How does it make you feel to hear your dad talk about you? Like. Well, it's obviously really makes you feel good. It also never stops being embarrassing Very embarrassing. Frank, you taught Scott's class at the FBI academy academy. Tell me what that was like to have Scott in the classroom. Well, what was interesting is at first I got a call from Scott that said, I've been asked if I had a problem with you teaching my class. Oh. And I said, well, do you? And he said, no, I told him that wasn't a problem. And then I got a call saying if I had a problem teaching the class that Scott was in and I. No, have a problem doing that. I don't know about you... but I am thoroughly confused. I have to think that Scott Abagnale is an honest dude. I don't know him but I owe him the benefit of the doubt. Why won't he say something? Anything. Blink twice if your dad is lying. But maybe he knows what's up and is just playing along. Working with the FBI undercover Until we know conclusively, we'll just have to continue hearing speeches like this.

Frank Abagnale: when I went to the FBI 41 years ago, I worked undercover for a long period of time. Then I went into the field and dealt with counterfeits and forgeries embezzlement, uh, financial crimes in the last 20 years, I've dealt with only cyber related, uh, crimes. So I spend most of my time with breaches.

Speaker: I have worked every breach back to TJ max 15 years ago. .

Frank Abagnale: So, does Frank Abagnale work for the FBI? I want to say he doesn't. But I really don't know. I don't think he does. I just can prove it.

Speaker: My fact checker, Kate, reached out to the FBI with a simple yes or no question. Frank Abagnale told the Star Tribune in Minneapolis that he is an ethics instructor at the academy. Is this true? Yes or No. The FBI media relations department immediately responded with a promise to get back to us. Finally… we’ll know once and for all if Frank William Abagnale Jr. works for the FBI. We waited weeks without a proper response. Honestly, we were getting the feeling that they might be ghosting us. But weeks later…completely out of nowhere, the FBI responds to Kate. “Hi, Kate, do you have a telephone number I could call you on?” Whoa. They have an answer and it’s so explosive that they can’t even put their response in an email. So Kate picks up the phone and calls them. They basically said, ‘This all comes down to semantics’. Semantics? Either he's on the payroll or he's not. Denise Ballew (bah-lou) , from the FBI press office, said that training division did confirm Abagnale has been guest speaker. But she couldn't say how many times - could be once could be hundreds. He’s been a speaker – meaning he’s spoken, he’s relayed info, therefore instructed, but he’s isn’t an instructor You see? Semantics She can’t confirm what Abagnales said in interviews - ‘ or that the reporter took what he said the right way, so can’t confirm such 3rd/4th party info’ When asked if Frank Abagnale ever received a paycheck, the press officer said, ‘Dont think FBI would ever say if someone got a paycheck - that would need to go through ethics and payroll maybe’ Kate asked if they were willing to be interviewed for this episode. The FBI declined and said the bearu won’t do interview or follow up questions with me, Javier. So to sum up...the FBI can neither confirm nor deny Frank Abagnale's employement with the agency. What did I expect? Al Brown Continued It's hard not getting discouraged. The FBI refuses to put this issue to rest. If they said, "yes, Frank Abagnale has been working for us." I would have said, egg on my face. Maybe the con man has turned a corner? But they also could have gone the other way and put to rest this ridiculous idea that this man is a federal agent. He's built a very lucrative career based on his experience with the FBI. It's the legitimacy that companies look for when they ask him to join their board or give a $30 thousand speech at one of their events. But the Bureau didn't do that. And it's not a great look. I'm going to cut them some slack because the bureau has bigger fish to fry these days. Abagnale is not their highest priority right now. But damn, does this guy really work for the FBI? If only I can talk to former agent Al Brown. You know the guy who arrested Abagnale. But that's a long shot. He said he has to get approval from Frank Abagnale first. That's never going to happen. But Guess what? Al Brown got back to me and he said that both the FBI and Abagnale gave him the all-clear. My conversation with retired Agent Al Brown, is right after the break. Break I scored an interview with the arresting FBI agent. Al Brown has never spoken to the media. He has the potential of blowing this case wide open.

Javier: you were the guy who slapped the handcuffs on Frank Anell.

Speaker: I mean, how, what was that day?

Al Brown: Yeah, well, yeah, there were three of us, three agents. The senior agent, to me was Joe Shay. And of course his part was played by Tom Hanks in the movie. He catch me if you can.

Speaker: And we had a new agent from Atlanta that came out to help us on the arrest, Tom McEwen. And I was a second office agent, we covered the area in Smyrna, Georgia, where, where Frank Ana was staying at a hotel called the Squire. But before you get too excited. Some of you may remember the 1986 2-hour primetime special called "The mystery of Al Capone's Valut." Thirty-million Americans, glued to their television sets, watched as Geraldo Rivera and an excavting crew cracked open a sealed off underground room at the Lexington Hotel in Chicago. A hotel owned by noneother than mobster Al Capone. What was behind that wall? Could there be treasure? Dead bodies? You can't appreciate the amount of hype surrounding this event. Finally, after 2 hours of waiting, the dynamite went off. When the vault was finally opened, the only thing found inside was a bunch of dirt and empty bottles. And the reason why I'm digging up this collasal letdown is because my interview with retired agent Al Brown is pretty much Geraldo's Rivera's Mystery of Al Capone's vault. I anticipated this being game changer interview but instead it turns out to be a pile of rubble. Here's why. Much like Capone's vault, Al Brown's arrest of Frank Abagnale was pretty uneventful. I'll let Al Brown explain.

Al Brown: So, uh, the time the communication said, Hey, Frank, uh, Abby nail is, uh, staying according to our information. He's staying at the Squire in, in Smyrna, Georgia, go get it.

Speaker: So it was just a, a routine white collar arrest for us at the time. You know, he was not notorious, not known and certainly not armed and dangerous. Uh, he was what we referred to as a white collar criminal, That's basically it. Al Brown wasn't chasing Abagnale for years, months, not even weeks. He basically got a call from the New York field office. They said, go pick this con man who's staying a motel down in Georgia. And that's what he did. The chase lasted as long as Geraldo Rivera's commerical break of his Al Capone's Vault special. Womp. Womp. But forget the case. I wanted to know why this former agent needed to get approval from Abagnale. And what did Abaglane say when he asked for permission.

Javier: last time we spoke, you said that you wanted to do the interview, but you had to kind of check first.

Al Brown: Well, yeah, I wanted to get the green light approval from. FBI pre publication people. And I thought also I would check with Frank Ana to make sure he didn't have any objections.

Speaker: Then I called him and his office approved. Uh, my speaking with you. Javier:

Al Brown: FBI stated that due to the notoriety of the case and the extensive amount of public awareness, they had no objection to my interviewing with you, but Any views and opinions are those of mine only. And not that of any government agency.

Speaker: And then in me, I'd like to say also for your information Javi, that anything I say any comments about Frank Ana will be only those about which I personally, you know, have personal knowledge of, you know, would be no conjectures on my part. That's it.

Javier: And that's all we wanna talk about. what I want to cover here is like, is. Said the facts. I wanna make sure that I just want to cover exactly what you experienced the actual arrest, cuz that's a big deal.

Speaker: I only want the facts. Now that we got that out of the way, I asked Al Brown to explain what happened the day of the arrest.

Al Brown: Well, the motel was just in a Squire in it's a fairly, it's fairly large motel and in his closet was hanging his Pan-American, uh, uniform with the three stripes

Speaker: We put the cuffs on him and it was just routine arrest. Took him to the Cobb county jail and Marietta because they, they hold. Hold federal prisoners for us. And that was it. It was, uh, just a routine.

Javier: And what did you know, uh, did you know any details about the check fraud or, or the crimes that he had committ?

Al Brown: As a matter of fact. No, we did not. Because as I stated earlier, he certainly wasn't famous or notorious at the time there was no movie done and that, that came sometime later. So all we knew is the background that New York furnished us.

Speaker: We know that the New York office was looking into Abagnale's whereabouts. Remember, the feds contacted Paul Holsen, after the incident where Abagnale was accused of performing physicals on the young University of Arizona co-eds. And he was also wanted for the bad payroll checks just 3 months prior. It's a tall order to ask Al Brown about a case that happened more than 40 years ago and that really had real significance. He simply got a call, drove over to a motel, arrested a small time swindler, and probably went to lunch afterwards. Pretty uneventful. The most surprising thing about this interview is the fact that Al Brown buys into the Frank Abanale mythology. Listen to this.

Al Brown: I don't recall the detail on it the way I'm sure they gave us some basic detail that he was a con artist and he'd passed checks all over the world that he flew jump seat with pan am that he, you know, impersonated different people, including a doctor and a lawyer.

Speaker: I've asked Al Brown to listen to my reporting, to read Alan Logan's book Greatest Hoax on Earth, or to simply look at the Frank Abagnale wikipedia page. The facts are there in plain sight. But yet, he doesn't want to believe. And part of me gets that. At first, I didn't want to believe. If Frank Abagnale's story is true, then surely Al Brown would remember going after a con artist who stold 2.5 million dollars. That was a lot of money back then. 2.5 million is woth $24 million dollars today.

Javier: Well, I mean, I would imagine that if they told you the dollar amount, one of these will jump at you. Right? Because he says that it was 2.5 million in bad checks, but in reality, It was only 1,500. So was it closer to 1,500 or was it closer to $2.5 million?

Al Brown: Well, again, I don't have personal knowledge cuz I didn't see them. I wasn't with him, but from what I knew and what I, you know, learned and, and what I read later, it was a whole lot more than $1,500 now. Because then he did it all over the world. So again, I don't have the exact numbers. I can't give you the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet it's substantial amount of money.

Speaker: The only facts Al Brown knows, without conjecture, is that he arrested Abagnale. That's it. The rest of the details have been contaminated throughout the years with the pervacive story we've all have been led to believe. When asked if Abagnale works for the FBI, here's what Al Brown had to say. He definitely has lectured at the FBI academy to new agents that I can tell you, he does that pro and he does that pro bono. I saw somewhere where somebody said he was an undercover agent. I've never heard that before at all. And he certainly has never told me that never made any statements like that.

Javier: Well, let's talk about

Speaker: let's go back to the FBI things. You, you you've mentioned that he's meant that he's made claims that he's worked undercover, but I mean, according to Frank ano I could pull. Quote, after quote after quote, he says that after you guys arrested him, you, you respected his work as a criminal so much that, that the FBI recruited him right. Outta prison to work for the FBI. And he's been working for the FBI according to him for the last 43, 45 years. How much of that is.

Al Brown: I have no, I have no personal knowledge as to when, what period the bureau. So called re recruited him. I don't know that they recruited him cuz he's not been on the payroll that I'm aware of. But so I don't, I can't tell you when, when he started or, or what the situation was, but I do know that he lectures and he still does, as far as I know, on a number of occasions at the FBI academy, new agents in Quantic.

Speaker: About, you know, cyber, uh, the stuff that, that he's fully aware of and how to avoid and trying to teach them how to handle some of these white collar crimes. Far as I know, he, he's not on the payroll and does not charged for this, this service.

Javier: So, so he does speak at the FBI, but there is a big difference between, uh, occasionally being a speaker at the FBI and then working for the FBI teaching ethics classes.

Speaker: for the last 40 years, that, that those are two different things, right?

Al Brown: I, I saw that in some of the writing somewhere that again, no personal knowledge that he ever taught ethics classes for 40 years.

Javier: the guy from the NSA told me that Frank Anell told him that he was a supervisory special agent.

Speaker: I mean, that's more than just an occasional guest speaker, you know?

Al Brown: well, yeah, well, again, I can't, I can't speak to that at all. He has never made any statements like that to me. Never,

Javier: but if

Al Brown: re remotely near that. Nothing.

Javier: right. But if, if I were to play you like a soundbite of him saying these kinds of things would as a, as a professional, as somebody who has a really, you know, has retired from the FBI has a, a, a career that you should be very proud of. I mean, does that kind of bother you a little bit, that some guy could be going around pretending that he's an FBI.

Al Brown: Well again with no personal knowledge that he really did that I, I, I can't, I can't specify either way. So I can't say that it would bother me because I don't know that to be true

Speaker: and Frank over the years, this is a fact he has appeared pro bono as a speaker and, and consultant at many FBI and other government events. In addition to what he does as a consultant, you know, for a living. And when he appears he charges nothing as a Fe featured speaker. But he, at my request, he appeared in September. I think it was 21 last year as our featured speaker at a FBI, retired pilots, uh, convention in Nashville. Now I said, Hey, Frank, we're gonna pay all your, your fee. And your expense is not, he said, I'll do this on my strictly pro bono. I don't charge the government anything. So I haven't seen that written anywhere else.

Javier: Oh, and we'll, we'll definitely mention that because that is very generous considering that he charges 20 to $30,000, you know, and that doesn't even include the travel cost. So that's really generous of him to do that.

Al Brown: Extremely so, and exactly in, I said, Hey, if you don't, you don't wanna take the fee. How about your hotel expenses? Nope. I cover it all.

Javier: In a way I could kind of see him. Going to Nashville for free speaking to the, the retired FBI airline pilots for free and, and doing all these other FBI events for free as a way to say, to validate his, his work with the FBI.

Speaker: So in a way, it almost seems like that he could kind of be using you, you know, as a. Taking you to the movie set, you know, like he's saying, look, look who I'm hanging out with. These are real FBI agents. And so when he goes around telling people that he's an FBI agent, it kind of adds to his credibility. Right.

Al Brown: Well, I, again, I cannot speak about, you know, I can only know what I, what I know for a fact myself. So I'd, I'd. Object on my part, you know, as far as whether or not he's using this, I've never had that feeling. I really don't. I really think he likes he does this because he feels that he owes it for whatever reason to society to do that.

Speaker: I, I personally don't think he's using doing that just to use this. That's an opinion, which I said, I didn't want to do heavier. I never ever thought that he was using this. I really didn't. I still don't to this day. like I said, that was just a routine arrest. We averaged like 30, 40 a year in those days, you know that. So I, and I can't give you a whole lot of details.

Javier: you know, where Frank ano was when he was supposedly recruited by the FBI, he was at a kid's summer camp in Texas, and he was found guilty of stealing from a kid's camp and doing all sorts of stuff while he was on parole.

Speaker: So I I'm just wondering why the FBI. Would, uh, get this guy on their team.

Al Brown: Well, again, I have no knowledge of that one.

Javier: No. And that's fair. That's fair because I'm asking you questions that, that it's almost a little unfair because all you really did was you, you arrested this guy and, and it, and that your interaction with him only lasted a couple hours, right?

Al Brown: Couple you got it right. That couple hours.

Javier: I'm glad you checked with him though, because, and I'm glad that, uh, he let you do this interview too, because I think that it's good to have somebody like you, um, speak highly of him because you know, not a lot of people have been speaking highly of him, so it's nice to get a different point of view.

Al Brown: Well, my only, my only connection with him has been, since we arrested him has been positive.

Speaker: So we'll leave it at that. Maybe it's true. Frank Abagnale was personally hand picked by the FBI director to go on a secret mission in New Mexico. Maybe he really did infultrate secret military bases to disable bombs. And perhaps, the FBI was sending undercover informants into an orphanage to spy on kids who had no parents. Hey, stranger things have happened. For now, we're going to move on to the next chapter in Abagnale's life. But this time, we're going way back. I mean way, way back to his childhood. It turns out the apple may not fall far from the tree. I spoke with Frank Abagnale's neice who reached out to use to uncover a dark family secret. You Won't believe what we found out. That's next time on PRETEND. Extra

Frank Abagnale: They got a tip that I lived at the river bend departments in Atlanta, Georgia. So they went.

Speaker: Of course I was long gone. You're the manager. Miss? Yes, sir. FBI. We're looking for this man. Certainly. That's Dr. Williams. No, no, no. Miss this guy poses as an airline pilot. Oh no, this is definitely Dr. Williams. He lived here. Oh, I see. Moved in here and told you he was a doctor, huh? Oh, he not only told me that my daughter's a nurse appeared at the hospital. He was her boss for about a year. He worked in this hospital. Oh yes. Went up to the hospital administrator. Almost threw him out. Are you either your mind? 17 years old, Dr. Williams, one, the finest residents we ever had on our staff out the door, According She called him back and said, okay, he'll probably come back there. So put a warrant for this picture on file at the attorney General's office. Well, they called up the next day. Hey, how come you're looking for Bob Conrad? Oh, this picture you sent up here. Frank Ana. This is Bob Conrad. You know, this man know him. He was an attorney on our staff. is he a good attorney? So a hell of an attorney. It's a hell of a doctor in Atlanta too.