The Real Catch Me If You Can part 7

Speaker: FWA's love for his parentsThe divorce When I was 16 years old, like all children, I needed my mother and my father. I want you to understand one thing. All children need their mother and their father. There are no exceptions. All children need their mother and their father. This is Frank Abagnale attempt to justifiy his criminal past. It's the story that captured Steven Speilberg's heart. In the film, Abagnale's parents are forced to move out of their large family home and into small New York City apartment. Why? Because of Frank Sr.'s, the dad, had tax trouble with the IRS. This was the beginning of the end for the Abagnale family. Later Frank Jr. learns that his mother Paulette was having an affair with his father's friend. Poor 16 year old Frank didn't know what to do, so he ran away from home. His plan was to make as much money as he can, so that maybe one day, he can get his family back together. Of course, that's just the Hollywood version of the story. I'll have Frank Jr. explain what really happened. One day, a complete stranger. A judge told me of the two people I loved most in the world. I had to choose one of them over the other. He gave me seconds to answer him. Instead I turned and ran. I have no regrets. I would do it again tomorrow. In real life, Frank Jr. says he ran out of the courtroom and into the streets of New York. And unlike the movie, he claims he never saw his father again. And would not see his mother until he turned 23. And I will tell you that there isn't a man or woman alive today who can look me in the face and tell me that they've experienced a divorce between their parents and that they're over. It never gets over it Divorce isn't easy. I know, because my parents got divorced too. And hey, I'm not perfect. I once stold a pack of gum from the drug store. But it wasn't because my parents got a divorce. It's because I was a stupid punk. But somehow, despite the fact that my parents split up, I don't want to brag, but for the most part, I managed to become a productive citizen. I've never written any bad checks, or posed as a doctor to physically examine unsuspecting girls. but how could I tell you? It was glamorous. I cried myself to sleep till I was 19 years old. I always get amused by these articles and my exploits. I lived it. I used to think it was ironic that I could fool the world. And I was believing I was a doctor to crawl into a bed in an apartment every morning and cry myself to sleep. Because no matter how much I fooled the world in the believing I was an adult, I was just a kid. All this sounds like an excuse to me. And you know what they say. Excuses are like assholes. And Frank Abagnale sure has a lot of them. According to his autobiography Catch Me If You Can, which we just learned is a work of fiction, Frank Jr, says that his father, was an avid fisherman. According to the book, Frank Sr. traveled the world, looking for the perfect fishing spot. Did he ever invite his wife to tag along? Hell no. These trips were for men! A wife's place is at home. Let me read you a passage from the new found fairy tale of Frank Abagnale's life, Catch Me If You Can: "My mother was a women's libber before Gloria Steinem learned her Maidenform was flammable. And one day Dad came back from a marlin-chasing jaunt to find his home creel empty. Mom had packed up and moved herself, us three boys and Sis into a large apartment. We kids were somewhat mystified, but Mom quietly explained that she and Dad were no longer compatible and had elected to live apart" The 1960s was the beginning of the divorce boom. During this time, a significant number of women rejected their predestined roles as housewifes. Many women rolled up their sleeves, and entered the workforce. They also managed to close the education gap. As a result, divorce rate skyrocketed. By the end of the 1960s, 3 out of every thousand americans filed for divorce. Believe it or not, that rate is higher than it is today. So as it turns out... Paulette Abagnale didn't cheat on her husband like it was suggested in the film. As far as we know... She simply wanted out of the relationship. But it seems like little Franky resented her for this. He never bad mouthed his mom in the book. But he sure didn't mind Spielberg bashing her in the movie. Love for the father You know, I was a very gifted child. God gifted me with the greatest father that any little boy could ever ask to have in life. There are lots of fathers, but there are very few daddies. It takes a very, very special man to be a. They are far and few between my father was a daddy. He loved his children more than he loved life itself. He was a daddy because he told his children every day of their life. He loved them. Not only physically, but verbally as well. What I remember growing up most in my house, there were four of us every night at bedtime. My father's six foot three would walk around to each child's room, drop down on one knee. Give you a kiss on the cheek and give you a hug and whisper in your ear. I love you. I love you very much. Same routine night after night, he never missed a night. Some nights he came home late. You fell asleep, but you always woke up in the morning and somehow knew he had been there the night before. Mother Abagnale has very kind things to say about his father.

Frank Abagnale: was one of those few children that got to grow up in the world with a daddy.

Speaker: My father was a man who had four children, three boys and a daughter every night at bedtime. He'd walk into your room. every night at bedtime. He'd walk into your room. every night at bedtime. My father's six foot three would walk around to each child's room, drop down on one knee. Give you a kiss on the cheek and give you a hug and whisper in your ear. I love you. But very rarely, in his speeches, does he mention his mother Paulette. Afterall, according to him, it was Paulette who broke up the family... and it seems like Frank Abagnale never could forgive her. In the movie Catch Me If You Can, Paulette was protrayed as an unfaithful wife who slept with her husbands friends unashamably. On youtube, you'll find comments like these: "All Frank Wanted was his parents back together and one day he finds out his mother moved on and happy with a new child." Another Youtube user said, "She cheated her way to happiness" And other "What a disgrace to motherhood and such a selfish act." "One of the most scariest thing a person can go through realizeing your mother does not care about you anymore." "I don't know how that woman could just forget about her first kid like that." Father in the movie On the other hard, Frank Abagnale Sr. is protrayed as the victim. In both the book and the movie, he desperately wanted to get his family back together.

Frank Abagnale: Steven Spielberg would later write the more I research Frank youth, the more. Couldn't help, but put his father in the film through the likes of Christopher Walken.

Speaker: As you know, Christopher Walken was nominated for best supporting actor for his role as Frank Abagnale Sr. This was an unsusal role for Walken because he's typically type cast as the vilian. But not this time. Despite his flaws, Walken played Frank Sr. as the good guy in the film. Mother in the movie Here's a clip from the PanAm podcast.

Host: Is there anything you wanna to point out the differences between your real life and this Hollywood blockbuster

Frank Abagnale: emotion picture?

Speaker: you know, when I watched a movie and I honestly have only seen a movie twice, when I watched a movie, you know, in real life, I had two brothers and a sister. He portrayed me as an only child and real life. He says the film took other creative liberties. Frank Jr. acknowledges that his mother never remarried for another 20 years. He also conceeded that he didn't escape from the airplane toilet. It was a hatch in the back of the plane. But the only thing I never understood about the whole movie and always, he would never answer this question for me. As I said, I really didn't understand how you portrayed my father because you know, my father was probably the most honest man you ever wanted to meet? He was outraged by his father's protrayal... But not once during this interview did Frank Jr. mention how his mom was protrayed as a cheating spouse who amandoned her kids. If his mom was painted in such a negative light, wouldn't he be more upset about that? That's the thing... audiences expect that if a movie is based on a true story, that producers and directors compress time, consolidate characters, and greatly exaggerate the real story. It's not meant to be a documentary. But that's not the case with Catch Me If You Can. Because according to Frank Jr., Steven Spielberg got it mostly right. Mr. Agne perhaps I can bring you in just now. Um, how close is it then? This movie to the real thing. And remember, we might not believe what you're saying. , uh, I personally felt that the movie was about 80%, uh, accurate, there were minor details in the. Movie that Mr. Spielberg changed But the essence of the story, me running away, uh, me posing as a pilot, the doctor, the lawyer, the escape from the hotel room, all of the, the escape from the airplane with a slight little twist to it. But all of them based on actual things that I actually did. But other than that, I felt the film was, uh, actually a lot more accurate than I thought it would be. And certainly a lot more serious than I thought it would be in the end. Intro Richard Frank Jr. also acknowledges that in the movie he was a single child. But it real life, he had two brothers and a sister. The youngest brother's name was Richard Abagnale who suffered from alcoholism. He hit rock bottom at the age of 29. in 1982, Richard was involved in a high-speed chase after police witnessed him speeding past several red lights., forcing oncoming traffic off the roads, and at one point driving up the sidewalk. He was charged with driving while intoxicated, reclkless driving, and driving with a suspended license. Then in a seperate incident that same year, Richard got back behind the wheel. But this time, he was driving at night when he veered on to oncoming traffic and struck a car head on. v. Paramedics found the the passangers of the other vehicle unconcious. One of those passengers was an assistant county attorney. Richard Abanale ended up serving 6 months in prison and several years probation. Richard never really had the ambition of his other two brothers. He eventually had a child, who he left for his mother to raise. At one point he lived in a church basement, where he worked as a landscaper. Richard died in 2006 form liver cirrhosis. Intro to sister Frank Abagnale also had a sister named Linda. There's not a whole lot we know about her. We do know that she is a person with a learning disability. It's reported that the sister wasn't raised in the Abagnale household. She's still alive and well and works as a volunteer at a hospital. Intro Roy And then there was Roy, the oldest sibiling. What I remember vividly is my older brother moved in my room. As he got older, he eventually joined the Marines. He was six, four. Yeah. When he came home on leave, my father would walk around to his. Hug him kiss him whisper right into his ear. I love you. You were never too old. But not everything was rosey at the Abagnale household. It's been said that Rob Abagnale couldn't get out of that house fast enough. He enlisted in the marines with a new name and a fake age. It seems like being an imposter, runs deep in the family. When we return, we're going to dive deep into Roy Abagnale's life. It turns out, he is a much more gifted con artist than his brother Frank. Break In the film, there's a scene where young Frank shows up at his mother's new house on Christmas Eve. It's snowing and Nat King Cole's Christmas song plays in the background. Young Frank peers through the window as he witnesses his mom with her new husband and a small little girl. It looked like Frankie, as his mom used to call him, was replaced. Her life was perfect. But unlike the movie ... Paulette, Franks mom, didn't remary until 18 years after her divorce with Frank Sr. She didn't run off with Frank Sr. best friend or any other slut shaming events. Ironically, it was Frank Sr. who got remarried 3 months after the divorce was finalized. Three months! Gee, I wonder who really broke up the marriage?You do the math. And remember that story Frank Jr. likes to tell? I remember walking up the steps of the stone building that afternoon that said family court, not really understanding what that meant. But when I arrived, court was already in session. When I was ushered into the back of the immense courtroom, my parents were standing before the judge. The judge looked up and saw me at the back of the room. A moment later, he looked up and told me that my parents were getting a divorce. In shock. I looked at the judged and looked at my parents. He went on to explain that under New York state law, because I was 16 years of age and a court of law before a presiding judge, I had to tell the court which parent I wanted to live with. I started to cry. So I turned and ran out of the courtroom. Judge called for a 10 minute recess. But by the time my parents got outside, I was nowhere to be. He's probably told this story a million times.

Frank Abagnale: I was a 16 year old boy who ran away from home and ended up on the streets of New York city

Speaker: And again I ran away from home at 16 when my parents got a divorce ended up on the streets of New York He ran out of the courtroom and ended up on to the streets of New York City. Such a vivid description. I can almost picture IT frame by frame. Except, this story is physically impossible because Court records show Paulette and Frank Sr. got a divorce in Mexico, not New York City. Why would anyone make up such a stupid story like this? Well, because he can. You might be asking yourself why a Mexican Divorce? You see, back in the day, it was way quicker and easier to get a divorce down in Mexico. You didn't even have to be there. Simply send a lawyer to represent you and bada bing bada boom. Divorced. The letters The point that I'm trying to make is, why did Frank Jr. idolize his dad while feeling resentment towards his mother? Let's take a trip back in time to when Frank Abagnale was living with Paula Parks' family. Remember Paula Parks, the flight attendant who discovered Frank living with her parents? Well, it turns out Abagnale was robbing her family blind the entire time he was living with them. He was caught and was arrested for theft and forgery. While sitting in a Baton Rouge jail, Abagnale's mother and father both wrote letters to Reverand Underwood, a local preacher who took Frank Jr. under his wing. Paula Parks kept these letters.

Paula Parks: would you be interested in, any of these letters from Frank? mother.

Speaker: Javier: Why are these letters important? Because we're hearing Paulette and Frank Sr for the first time, in their own words. What is their opinion of their troubled son? Pauellte wrote the preacher: "Dear Reverend Underwood. I am Frankie Abagnale's mother and I want to thank you very much for the kindness and interest you have shown my son. He is in dire need of help. I mean psychiatric help as he seems to have a compulsion to write checks and is unable to stop." She adds, "I have tried to get him help, but was not successful and is just getting worse." In a seperate lette, Frank Sr. wrote, “Dear Reverend Underwood If remorse and a guilty conscience of a father could somehow undo the sins of his son I would gladly submit to the punishment I deserve. Neglect and indifference to the problem of my son in his early youth are my sins. Frank Junior has been emotionally disturbed since the age of 10 and should have received consultant psychiatric treatment. He lives in a world of grandeur, trying I believe to emulate his father who like him believed the world owed him a grand living without the effort and discipline needed to achieve it. My son is mentally sick and desperately needs psychiatric treatment." Ouch. But of course, Frank Jr. will never mention any of this on stage. He doesn't just suffer from delisions of granduer... he also suffers from extreme memory loss. My mother never saw me again for seven years until I was a young adult. My father, unfortunately never laid eyes on me again, Frank Jr. insists he never saw or spoke to his father after he ran away from home at sixteen. But this is another lie. Because at the age of 17, a year after he supposedly ran away from home, Frank Jr. stold a car in California. And guess who flew all the way from New York to bail him out? That's right Frank Sr. The man he says he NEVER saw again. Father dies While I was sitting in that French prison. My father climbing the subway, 55, very physical athletic man, as he did every morning, tripped on a step. When he reached back to grab the rail, he missed it, his head hit it. When he landed at the bottom of the step, he was dead. I didn't know he was dead. I was not there to see him placed in the. and most of all, I never got to tell him how much I loved him. That's my biggest regret of all. Most of that is true. Frank Sr. did have a fatal fall down the subway stairs. But he didn't die on the spot. And Frank Jr. wasn't sitting in a French prison wading in his own feces. Junior was actually at the Federal Correctional Institute in Petersburg, Virginia serving time for forging the 10 Pan Am payroll checks. Again, why would he embelish his father's death in order to make himself sound cool. It's just weird man. When we return from the break, we're you're going to hear from Frank Abagnale's neice. What she told me reveals a much more complex family tree. It turns out Frank's brother may be an even more impressive conman. Meet Heather.

Heather: I have no connection to Frank. We're not, we're not friends. We're not , we're not anything. I mean, he is my uncle, but I have like no connection to

Javier: You don't, you don't get together for Thanksgiving,

Heather: Nope. Nope, Nope. Nope.

Speaker: As you probably figured out, Heather's father was Frank Abagnale Jr.s older brother Roy. Heather grew up with her grandmother Paulette. I wonder what she thinks of the way Paulette was characterized in the movie and book.

Javier: I was curious to talk to you I mean, particularly on how your grandma was portrayed in the movie,

Heather: So my grandma actually sued Dreamworks and won as well. They settled out of court, but she was very upset, with how she was portrayed in the movie. was not close to reality.

Javier: I, I did not know that, that that's interesting. You.

Heather: Yep. Yep

Speaker: I can't verify this claim because most lawsuits settled out of court are not public record. But that doesn't matter because it seems like paulette didn't appreciate being villianized by Hollywood.

Javier: did you know that it was all a bunch of lies?

Heather: no, not until the book. Like I knew that there was like untruth in the movie because my grandma was always mad about it. But, um, no, I just figured he had this wild story I had no idea that not only was it a crazy story, but it was even crazier cuz it was mostly untrue and it's really just about.

Speaker: promotion. Frank always had like a weird thing with his mom. She's a great woman. I knew her growing up and she was wonderful. Like one of my favorite relatives ever, actually named my daughter after.

Javier: Oh, really

Heather: Yeah, no, it's, it's strange how different, and I don't know if that's just Frank really believes that or if he has, he's just always idolized his dad, but his dad, um, my, my dad really could not, not stand his father.

Speaker: The way Heather puts it, Frank Jr. admired his father. You can sense that in his speeches throughout the decades. But barely mentions his mother at all. On the flipside, Roy, the oldest son, hated his father and loved his mother. About Frank Sr.

Heather: I didn't know my grandpa at all, but I, from what my dad has told me, he was an abusive alcoholic and he was really, uh, he traumatized them pretty severely.

Speaker: I think. Frank is probably antisocial and he's probably antisocial from growing up with trauma and he just can't accept that his abuser was bad. So he's just gone the other way and decided that he's gonna idolize him instead, which a lot of trauma survivors do. It's not that uncommon. but my dad went the opposite way. He just like separated from his father and he hated his father and he didn't want anything to do with him. Frank went the other way where he thought it was all his mom's fault and his dad was the hero. So, stories that my dad has told is that like he locked my grandma in like the closet for extended amounts of time. I know my dad had issues, not issues with sexuality, but you know, kind of. Struggled because his first sexual encounter was at the age of 12. His father made him have sex with a prostitute, like in front of him. So he was pretty damaged from that experience. Um, yeah, he just sounded like a Roten person. I don't, it's so weird. Like the cognitive disconnect that Frank could think that, like, this was a great man, cuz what I've heard, he sounds pretty awful. The two Abagnale brothers didn't see eye to eye when it came to their parents and didn't talk much later in life, depsite that their bond was undeniably strong. So my dad had a, kind of a strange relationship with Frank Jean Paul dying

Heather: And then when he passed away, what was interesting is, he didn't have, he wanted to die at home.

Speaker: He got multiple myeloma and it was pretty bad at the end. And we needed a lot of, money to be able to, to do that. Cuz we needed around the clock care. And it was interesting because when my dad was just very sick and he knew that he wanted to go home and there wasn't really any way to logistically make it happen. He was like call my brother, which I thought was so strange because they hadn't spoken in so long. But, yeah, I have a resentment against Frank because he did end up paying for it, but they were really just. Calling his wife was calling my dad's life going. Well, how much do you think this is gonna be? And how long do you think he's going? You know? And I was like, Ooh, and it ended up being like maybe two weeks if, if that maybe like 10 days. So it wasn't like this went on and on and on, but they were like stressing about it.

Heather: And I was

Javier: Yeah. But how gross is that? Right?

Heather: I. I know cuz we're grieving and we're trying to take care of him. And I took off work and flew back to New York and my dad and I were very close. Um, and it was just, I just don't like that. I just, I know that they have another brother, Rick who also passed away.

Speaker: He had a lot of problems with addiction and I remember that Frank gave him a Rolex at one point and. Then found out how much money it was really worth and like took it back. I always thought that was so bad. Yeah. Like just really bad.

Javier: and, and remind me when your father passed away, was it recent?

Heather: He passed a no, it was like, I think six years now.

Javier: six years ago, Frank ABAG now is living in this multimillion dollar. Island home in South Carolina, he's booking 20,000 to $30,000 per keynote speech. And here he is like it's. So it seems so gross that his brother isn't his deathbed and he's, he's asking like, oh, well how much is this gonna be?

Speaker: And he's putting up some resistance. Isn't that weird?

Heather: Exactly. It's exactly. but actually it was mostly his wife. He, he said, okay. And then she was the one. So I don't know if he like says those things, but doesn't say them and lets her be the bad guy or if she really is the bad guy and he is just kind of passive and lets her do what she does,

Speaker: Jean Paul Secrets/name changes

Heather: But back to Roy, heather's father. After he passed away, he left Heather with all these questions about his life. A lot of it didn't really make sense. So she reached out to Alan and me to help her put the pieces back together.

Speaker: so I don't even a hundred percent know what my dad's. Real name is honestly, because when we would go to my grandma's as a kid, my grandma would call him Roy. So I feel like his name is Roy because that's what his mom calls him. And I doubt she would call him by a different name, but he told me his name was Jean Paul, but on his. Military documents, which I've seen his name is Eugene

Javier: Right. yeah.

Heather: So yeah, I don't. And I've seen different combinations like Eugene, Frank, Roy Eugene, John Paul. Yeah.

Speaker: According to a 1950's census, his birth name is most likely Roy Abagnale. There's no reason to believe that his parents would lie about their child's name. I feel like there's more to the story when it comes to my father. my father has always been a bit of an ENIG. To me. definitely had like lots of secrets. my mom actually divorced him because she found out that the name that he gave her was actually not his name. And he's had several name changes throughout his life. So I feel like my dad is, this is total speculation. So don't take this as fact, but I do feel like my dad might have done some of the things. My uncle took credit for, or they have some sort of strange connection in the criminal realm that my dad would never disclose to me. In other words, is Frank Abagnale just a cheap copycat wannabe, while his older brother Roy is actually the better con artist? Exchanging identities

Javier: Do you know anything about your father and Frank ever exchanging identities? Do you know anything about that? I know you said that he, uh, Frank took his social once, but any other stories like that?

Heather: Frank had his social and one at one point, my dad was going by Frank, but not, but like maybe middle name Frank. One of his aliases

Speaker: he was so secretive, he, kind of did some shady dealings that I feel like he. Have been able to do if he was not connected to that world. It turns out that her father was really just a stranger. There was more to his past than anyone around him even realized. Like the time he got ahold of a stolen car. and my dad was like, I'll take it. It was a brand new car, but it was like a hundred percent illegal. And he was able to get it tagged and registered to him and like. Within like a matter of weeks. So I know that he has connections, like not everybody could do that. I couldn't take a stolen car and make it legal.

Javier: I wouldn't even know where to start. Yeah. Like where would you go?

Heather: you gotta know people.

Javier: yeah. You got enough people for sure.

Speaker: Fake Degree

Heather: He met my mom at a group home and got caught, pretending to have a master's degree and was fired.

Speaker: He had used a fake diploma, but stories. He told his wife and my, my mom are all false. where he went to college, where he grew up his name, everything is. Skewed. So I just, I know that my dad like did some stuff and I just, I just have questions about like, what is, what, what was he doing? There's like spaces of time that are missing when my dad left the military. We're going to do our best to look into this time period. Heather suspects that maybe Frank Abagnale and her father were in cahoots. I have like the feeling that my dad probably, if he didn't do all of those things, he was at. In on it. I know that he, that Frank used my dad's social security number and my dad was really mad about that, but I just think there's more, I mean, you don't change your name that many times and lie about your past and do all the, that. If you don't have something there, there, you

Javier: Right. Right.

Speaker: Kidnapping

Javier: But all her suspicions came to a head after her father died. While reading Alan Logan's book "The Greatest Hoax," Heather came across a passage that she couldn't put down. In fact, she read over and over again.

Heather: the reason why I reached out to Alan in the first place was there was this part of the book. I don't know where you, if you remember, it was like two sentences, but it really screwed me up where it said, um, Somebody, I knew it was my dad. I just knew. I just, he didn't mention my dad by name, but I just knew that that's who he was talking about.

Javier: It was a 1968 newspaper clipping from the Ukiah Daily Journal in California about a man named Jean Francias Abagnale. Eerily similar name as her father Jean Paul Abagnale. Could this be Heather's father? Jean Francis gave police Paulette Abagnale's home address. Who else could it be? It couldn't be Frank Abagnale Jr. because he actually had a solid alibi. He was sitting in prison in comstock new york. So it has to be Jean Paul Abagnale.

Speaker: The headline read, "a 7 year old girl found with 'therapist.' The article says that Roy Abagnale was charged with credit card fraud and unlawful conversion of a vehicle, which is another way of saying that he didn't return a rental car. The article states that at the time of his arrest, Abagnale was accompanied by a seven year old girl from Michigan. What was this 25 year old man doing traveling with a 7 year old girl from Michigan all the way to California? That's a 35 hour drive. Or did Roy Abagnale fly with the girl he abducted? The article doesn't explicitly mention how long the girl was missing. The girl's father said that Abagnale was a therapist and that he was supposed to take the child to New york, not California. When asked why Abagnale was with the girl, Roysaid that he was taking her to receive treatment for injuries received in a car accident.

Heather: took a girl to California and posed as a therapist. Which seemed so creepy and weird and like out of sorts for my father. So I was trying to get more information on, like, what was that all about?

Javier: And I, I have the article right in front of me.

Speaker: I read Heather the article.

Heather: Heather's father JRoy did work as a therapist. That much is true. But the question is, did he ever live in Michigan where the kidnapped 7-year-old girl lived?

Speaker: And what, so there's a couple things that I know that I've been pieced together from stories that his wife have. Told me. And she said that he did work in like a psych hospital in Michigan. And there was a little girl that he was very attached to. And, and I guess she was like nonverbal, almost feral. She was like really, really sick. And I guess my dad was really good with her and was able to kind of bring her out of her shell. So I wonder if that's the same girl, but I have no idea why he would take her out of there. Why he. take her to California when he was supposed to be taking her to new New York. I'm a therapist. So I feel like. You can't dude, like you just can't do that. what is like, it almost gives me like creepy, pedophile vibes, but my dad wasn't like that. So I'm like, I don't understand. Like I just don't understand. It seems Roy abagnale also had a facination with children. Let's be clear, we don't know if there were any sexually inappropriate things going on with him and that little girl or what his intensions were. This article doesn't even mention if he was ever charged with any kidnapping charges. All we know is that the parents gave permission for Abagnale to transport the girl from Michigan to NY but instead he headed the opposite direction to California.

Javier: Now, let me, let me tell you something that you may or may not know Every time Frank Ana was released from prison or jail, he would go seek out children. So he would volunteer at children's camps.

Speaker: He would volunteer with mentally disabled children. Every time it was like clockwork, he would get released. He would go seek children out. Also Frank ano is a Notator. Forger, he also pretends to be other people. I mean, like this article just reads like Frank ABNA isn't that weird?

Heather: Yeah, and that's super creepy and I don't know what his deal is with kids. And other than the fact that they're easy marks maybe, but I don't, I don't know, like it's super, it makes me feel like really, really uneasy, cuz I hope that that's it. my dad, you know, I think he maybe got, was up to some stuff just with all like the stories that don't align that he's told, but he was not, he was not like that.

Speaker: I've never seen him be weird with kids. So I don't know.

Javier: it just seems so weird how is it that two, two boys coming from the same family and same household have these similar traits of the impersonating and, and forgery.

Speaker: Isn't that weird? Like, how does that happen? Name changes

Javier: This wasn't the only time Roy Abagnale changed his name.

Heather: So I know the first time my dad ever forged his name was to get into the military. I know that for sure. Like he, he, you could do that back then. You could per you could make up your birthday and you could like. Give them a fake name. So the name that he went into with the military, stuck with him for a while, and then he changed it again and then he changed it again.

Speaker: so maybe he kind of learned like that, that worked. Well connected

Heather: Heather says that throughout her life she was suspicious of her father. Like the time Jean Paul got ahold of a stolen car.

Speaker: The protoype

Heather: it's hard like doing this cuz I get more questions than answers. with Frank, like he's everything is out there now, you know, I don't think I. Most of it is true, but he's the one who invited all of this scrutiny.

Speaker: Right. He didn't have to share all of this with the world. He's like a shameless self promoter. So that's what happens when you shamelessly self promote, people are going to look at you and your history. my dad was much more like secretive and under the radar, which makes me think he was just probably smarter. He didn't get caught for anything. He never, you know, had a record, but, you know, he, he definitely had some stuff and it it's just, I wish I knew more.

Javier: I hope that we could, along the way shed more light for you, cuz I recognize how frustrating that must be to, to not know, And then the person that could give you the answers is not here to tell you, you know,

Heather: Yeah. And when I, when I was really bothered by, I was really bothered by the seven year old girl thing, to be honest. And I, I reached out to Frank cause I was like, I don't care. Just like, tell me what happened. Like I just wanna know. Um, and he, he just didn't respond.

Javier: He didn't respond at all. He, he, nothing. Yeah.

Heather: no, nothing. I don't think he wants anything to do with me cuz he knows.

Speaker: Um, you know, I have questions that he doesn't really wanna answer. if you find anything that you think, especially like, I don't really care about Frank, to be honest, but I really care about my dad. His story and what, what is maybe missing? because I would like to know what the whole deal is with that little girl. Cause that's, that's a little disturbing. you can't take a child,

Javier: It's, it's very disturbing. if I find anything new, I'll be in touch, Let's see what we can dig up on Roy Abagnale.... that's next after the break.

Speaker: Research

Javier: After my call with Heather, Alan Logan and I hit the ground running to see what we could dig up on Roy Abagnale. Like mentioned previously in the episode, her father enlisted in the Marines. But he didn't use his legal name Roy Abagnale. Instead, in 1961, he signed up as Eugene F. Abagnale. He pressumably changed his name to disguise the fact that he was only 16 years old.

Speaker: Heather's father goes by many different alias throughout his life. So in order to eliminate confusion, we'll refer to him by his birth name Roy Abagnale. We found an old military newspaper article which shows that Roy Abagnale was a marine serving on a US Navy submarine the Springfield. The article featured a Marines valentines sweethearts contest. Each year, marines submit their significant other. But THE 1963 winner was a bit unorthodox. The committe chose Paulette Abagnale. Yes, Roy entered his mother in the beauty contest and won! Who does that? oEdipous complex, anyone? The article states that his mother Paulette grew up outside of Paris and attended University in Switzerland. This is not true. Paulette did not grow up outside Paris (she was Algerian) and did not go to university, she was 17 when she had Roy and moved to the USA And according to this article, Paulette was also painted by the great Norman Rockwell. This is most likely a lie too since there's no proof this painting exists. It seems Roy, much like his younger Frank, has a very active imagination. Jean Paul Jr.

Javier: We also discovered that, later on in life, Roy eventually had a son

Speaker: Did Heather know that she could possible have a half sibiling out there? We got back on the phone with Heather to talk about some of this new information. Heather also invited her mother Susan to help fill in some of the gaps. Susan was married to Roy from 1970-1978.

Susan: We were working in a, residential treatment center for boys.

Speaker: Alan:

Susan: He was already there when I got the job.

Speaker: Roy was an established therapist at the counseling center. Susan didn't know it at the time, but he was working there with a phony degree. He was not a licensed psychologist. he was terminated when they discovered that, He had probably been there like 15 years and, and then there was a change in management and he had a new supervisor and when the supervisor came in, he checked on everybody's, histories and, and that's when it came up and he got fired. She must have been floored to discover that the man she married was a fraud. I, I was devastated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've question everything, everything about everything. Susan felt violated and cheated. If he's lying about this, what else is he making up? I had an operation in his mother came to stay with me. And we were talking and, and all of a sudden she was, you know, talking about the past and this and that, and a whole lot of facts that he had told me about his life, where he was born, what his name was, were were not true. and that, that was really the big turning point.

Javier: Susan. You knew him as John Paul, right?

Susan: Yes. But that was not his name. He made that up but I, you know, that's what I always called him. And, um, his mother always called him Roy, but I thought that was just his nickname for, for her, you know, but that was actually his real.

Alan: Yeah.

Susan: I asked Susan and Heather if they knew that Roy had a child. And it turns out, they already knew this. The boys name was Jean Paul Jr.

Javier: Heather told me that her brother had very little contact with their dad until he became an adult. She said that her half brother had extensive behavioral problems as a child. And she always thought it was strange that her father considered himself a brilliant behaviorist with children but had no interest in addressing the issues of his own son.

Speaker: We talked more about this during our second call.

Heather: So mom, I was going tell story, cause it's so bizarre of Jean Paul and, like his childhood and what happened with his mom. but I forgot about that piece when I was talking to last time and I feel like it it's just so that.

Susan: I don't know, know if any of this is true, but what he told me was that she, it was an outta wedlock, situation. And, and she was not a good mother.

Speaker: She got him back somehow, and then he kidnapped her again and he,

Javier: That's right, the mother of the kid kidnapped the boy from Roy. Then Roy kidnapped the kid back.

Susan: He, he never did raise him himself, even though he kidnapped him. And, but then he took her, took him to her, his mother's house. She raised him.

Heather: So I always thought that story was so strange because

Speaker: why would you kidnap a kid just to give him to your mother? Like he didn't even raise him. So it was very weird to why why he would do that

Javier: the word kidnap is a strong word, right? and was the, the child literally kidnapped, I mean, in, in the way we're thinking about it.

Heather: taken from

Speaker: his mother with.

Susan: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's how he coined it.

Speaker: Kidnapping of a 7 year old girl

Javier: we're talking about like kidnapping, but it also, it makes me think of that 1968 incident where this seven year old girl was taken to California, that was written in the newspaper as a kidnapping. And I know that Susan, that that's way before your time with your ex-husband, but like what, what can you tell us about that??

Susan: There was a different story was that he was working at a mental hospital in Michigan, I believe. And he, um, there was a young gal there.

Speaker: and he befriended this girl, uh, and he was the only, she was very, very, very disturbed. And he was the only person in the whole hospital that she would communicate with. That was whose story. I think it was the same girl, just different versions of the story. I, I didn't know anything about him taking her out of the hospital The ironic part about this kidnapping story is that Ukiah, CA is not far from Eureka California which is the where his brother Frank Abagnale Jr was arrested three years earlier for stealing a yellow mustang. I wonder what's in this part of Northern California that drew both these brothers. That's a missing peice to the puzzle. Susan also told me that this wasn't the first time Roy built a relationship with another one of his underage patients. had befriended this little girl and they got really close and he was gonna adopt her. but that never happened. And you know, there, when we were married, I remember maybe once or twice, he actually had contact with her on the telephone or maybe a letter. he talked about her a lot Resume

Heather: So when you asked me about, if I knew where he worked in Michigan, I did reach out to,his wife after my mom. And she said that she has his resume somewhere and she was gonna dig it out for me. So that may help you.

Speaker: He together a timeline of, of places that he worked. Heather sent me a copy of her father's resume. Let's dive in. Right off the top, Roy writes.

Javier: Over 20 years experience in child welfare, including residential care for at-risk and emotionally disturbed populations.

Speaker: and that part is true. He did work as a child therapist for a long time. But his entire career was based on bogus credentials. Famous psychologist

Javier: On his resume there's a line where he developed a seminar with the wife of a famous Austrian psychologiast named Fritz Redl.

Heather: he was passing himself off as like a protege of this very famous psychologist.

Speaker: And that that's where he kind of got his training with children with behavioral health issues and probably how he was able to kind of pad things, to get the job at Berkshire farm, where my mom met him is that he was really passing himself off as like this child expert in children with like very severe mental health problems.

Javier: The resume is also full of other made up credentials. Roy claimed he graduated from Pacific Northwest University. The problem is that Pacific Northwest University didn't even exist until 2005.

Speaker: Roy also claims her earned an MBA from Canterbury College which, if you look it up is a degree mill disguised to look like an accredited UK university. Roy Abagnale also claims he worked in Togo West Africa from 1983-1988. But I can't find the foundation anywhere on the internet. If this were true, then Roy would have been missing from the time his daughter heather was 4 to the age of 9. Heather says that should would have remembered if my dad were absent for 5 years of her life.

Heather: So I think whatever scam he did at Berkshire farm, he did again, it was called Pius 12.

Speaker: He worked there until he was too sick to work anymore, but I'm pretty sure he also worked there under false educational pretenses Alan: Susan: Alan:

Susan: he was, he was let go from Pius also,

Speaker: right? Yes, he was also fired from Pius after one of the therapist he supervised. Supposedly, the therapist inappropriately touched a woman. The incident even made the local papers. Roy wasn't accused himself but he was the director of the institution.

Javier: all this makes me wonder, was he a well respected professional in the field or, or by his peers?

Heather: he was at Pius and he was at Berkshire farm too. Right. Mom.

Susan: He was, he was pretty controversial actually. but he had a, a kind of an avant-garde philosophy and, it didn't sit well with the management. Always, he, he had conflict with his peers, but the kids adored him.

Speaker: And actually, it was, it was more positive and, supportive and engaging, you know, which, which really attracted me to him because he was, you know, kind of bucking up against, you know, some pretty, uh, Harsh treatments and things that, you know, ways that people thought kids should be treated. And he ran a cottage of, of boys and they adored him. Armchair psychologist

Susan: Both Heather and her mother Susan are therapists. I wonder what they think was going on with these two brothers.

Javier: I hate to play armchair psychologist, but I, I am talking to two mental health professionals this fascination with children, you know, it's easy to make assumptions of that.

Speaker: There's something inappropriate happening with, with children, but at the same time, we're, we're also thinking, is this the case of these two boys who just didn't have a childhood? Like are, do they have that Peter pan? So. Syndrome where they were somehow robbed of their childhood. They grew up too fast and maybe that's why they keep gravitating towards children. I mean, what, what are your thoughts on that?

Heather: I think that what I see consistent with them both is this desire for status and wealth. And I feel like that's been really like throughout my experience with my dad. He just always wanted to present himself as like a person of, of great means. You know? And I, I think it's the same with Franken. I think that comes from childhood of, of not having means.

Speaker: And now it's like a super priority for both of them. Like how you look, how much money you have, how much you portray, how much money you have, that there's definitely an ideology there of like a worldview of really valuing money and status and fame. Would you agree, mom?

Susan: Yeah, I do. And I think bucking the system is part of it too. You know, doing things that are illegal or. Brandi, he didn't, didn't have to be liked by everybody. He didn't have that need, but he had a need to stand out in some way, uh, do things differently, you know, be the, the protege, the most famous psychiatrist, things like that, you know?

Speaker: Again, there's a strange pattern between these two brothers. Both tried to join the military at age 16. Roy changed his name in order to do so. And both have some strange gravitational pull towards children. And both brothers made up bogus university degrees and resumes. Except only one of them decided to flaunt his outrageous lies in public. Competitng for attention

Heather: Frank senior was, really affected by the success of his brother. And I feel like it's the same with my dad and his brother, Roy ABNA was very successful. And I think Frank S felt, you know, less than, or that he didn't measure up.

Speaker: What Heather is suggesting is that maybe Frank Jr. was just a wannabe con artist, while his older brother Roy actually pulled it off. I think that my dad was better at hiding things than Frank, or maybe my dad didn't want to be caught, but I just have a feeling my dad and Frank did some stuff that, or maybe my dad did stuff in Frank to credit, or there's just some, there's too many coincidences.

Javier: this is a man you've married. You, you thought you knew him. And obviously now we've been recounting all the ways that you didn't know him, but like, at the end of the day, though, when you look back, do you feel like you truly knew your ex-husband John Paul?

Susan: Oh, no, I don't. I don't. Yeah. You know, it was all, it was all made up. I mean, that's what was so devastating, you know, and many of those things, there was no reason for him to make it up.

Speaker: think he, he wanted to live some kind of grandiose lifestyle. Did you know that one of histories greatest Sibiling rivalries was between magician Harry Houdini and his younger brother Theodore Hardeen? Two magician performed together before Houdini went solo. When young Harry saw his brother his straight jacket escape, harry vowed to do the same trick but this time hanging upside down. Some biographers believe that Harry Houdini wanted his brother to be successfull, but not too successful. In the case of the Abagnale brothers, Frank Abagnale Jr. was never a brilliant doctor, lawyer, or a professor. He was just a guy who passed off bad checks and robbed camera equipment from a kid's summer camp. On the other hand, his brother Roy faked his way into being a therapist, and and was respected by his peers. In the end, he pulled it off, while his brother Frank is still trying to prove his own worth.