Rick: Claudia and David Rodriguez claim they're being stalked by their former doctor's husband. I know, it makes no sense. But they've been dealing with this for more than 3 years now.

Speaker: Tanya and Rick: this guy put a threat out to our home and he said, I'm in your neighborhood and I'm going to kill your family. I'm going to kill you.

Rick: I'm tired of being silenced. Yeah. I want this, I want this story, Alan, about how, what can happen to the average family, and how, how people can get, get away with it Because because law enforcement does not want to want to tackle it,

Speaker: Tanya and Rick: and also what, what it can do to your mental health. I mean, it's affected me in a detrimental way and, uh, I really don't want anyone else to have to go through what I personally have gone through and what I've been accused of. Claudia is being accused of having munchausen by proxy, a mental disorder where a parent purposely makes sick in order to gain attention. got a shunt in her brain, from a misdiagnosis when she was an infant. Claudia says that her daughter had a tube surgeically inserted in her head in order to drain brain fluid. They, didn't diagnose her correctly. And so by the time they figured out what was wrong with her, she had irreversible brain damage.

Rick: But they reject these accusations calling it victim blaming. The Rodriguez say they're just like any other family dealing with disabled kids.

Speaker: But today, it's all coming to a head. The detective on the case revealed that the Instagram accounts used to harass this family were created months before they ever became patients of the doctor. And the IP addresses all point back to their house. We're going to listen in on the conversation with the detective plus, I recruited a cyber security expert to take a deep look at everyone involved with the case in order to find new evidence. I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND. stories about real people pretending to be someone else. Let's pick things back up where we last left off. The detective on the case called Claudia and David hoping to put an end to this.

Det Hardina: Because when I spoke to the FBI, I don't mean, I don't know who this guy is, all I'm going with is what the evidence tells me and what I learned from experts.

Speaker: Okay. And to. And you don't think there's any possibility that your daughter's doing this? Absolutely not. She

Tanya: cries.

Det Hardina: She, both of my girls, The detective is referring to Logan, their oldest daughter who suffers from depression. Did you know that there were stuff on your phone, your daughter's phone that the, that the post inspector found that you, I don't know if you guys are aware of it?

Speaker: No. Like apps, apps and stuff that she's talking to. Other people. Did she know that she, she

Rick: had told me that, but she said that they were old and she like used them maybe

Det Hardina: once or twice. Oh, he, he said they were pretty recent recently deleted. Oh, I don't know if you're aware of that or not. Well,

Speaker: you're telling me the same thing that, you know, and I've interviewed him.

Det Hardina: He's telling me the same thing. He's like, no, I would never do this. Okay. Mm-hmm so, and then every phone number comes back to nothing. Other than the other than the Instagram accounts prior to people realizing how we track things all came back to your modems in your house.

Tanya: Right. Mm-hmm okay. But you know, okay, I'm

Det Hardina: gonna give you.

Speaker: And, and that has to be explained. I don't know. And, but you know, someone getting in cahoots with someone before they even know who you are, It just doesn't make sense. Can you agree with that? Do you agree with that? Okay. I didn't know, but they don't. I know, but they don't know you either. That's why, that's why I'm having a hard time. Right? Right. This doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense, but all I'm trying to tell you is that we are, we are, we are worn out. I am completely spent from this situation. The detective seems fed up with all of this. Feels the Rodriguez's are stalking the Gressmans and not the other way around. So we did open up a medical board, complaint against Dr. And I know, okay. I know, you know, but when we got the results that everything was unfounded and, and I was very upset.

Tanya: I got a message from allegedly, asking me, how is the medical board case going? Ha ha ha. it's not

Rick: funny.

Det Hardina: Well, I'm not, believe me. I'm not laughing.

Tanya: Yeah. Well, I'm just telling you it's it's like he knows everything that's going on. Mm-hmm and then when things backfire on us, cuz we can't get anywhere.

Speaker: He thinks it's frigging hilarious and he is getting away with it. And I even asked him about the Washington thing. I said, what are you, why are you harassing people in Washington and trying to get me in trouble? and he goes, he, he, he said, I joined a, a, I joined a pregnancy group on Facebook and got called out for being a fake and a phony and pissed off a Muslim woman. So I tracked her down and threatened to kill her and, uh, ordered pizza. Yeah. I did not know anything about that. The FBI did not tell us why they came to our home other than some activity was going on in Washington. Who, whoever this person is, I'm saying it's , but whoever it is knows an awful lot of information that I don't, I didn't know anything about.

Det Hardina: I mean, I guess the hard part I'm having is why you,

Tanya: I don't know. I'd like to know that myself, I don't know. I wanna be left alone.

Speaker: That's the million dollar question. I, I don't know.

Det Hardina: Okay, well, I've told you where I'm at. Yeah, with it. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just having a hard time. I know. Trying to figure out why he would target you. I don't know. And go through all this. I think the, the reason why is because she didn't, she doesn't didn't she grew to not like my. It's and I, I remember

Speaker: a, yeah, but it started before they were seeing you.

Tanya: Yeah. And I don't, I can't explain that because I didn't even know this doctor.

Det Hardina: and then something pissed to Mo something pissed, whoever off to have them say that she wanted to commit suicide back in March of 2019. And I'm

Tanya: not the one that made that call. I didn't even know anything about it,

Det Hardina: but the won the I, the Instagram account is the one that.

Speaker: Right. And that's one of the first ones produced. And again, it shows it was started and turned off from your IP

Tanya: address. Let me interject here. in of March 2019...Before the stalking started, a fake social media account alleging to belong to dr gressman admitted to botching the surgery of a child. The account also made references to a bomb threat and that Dr. Gressman is suicidal. this information was brought to the attention of phoenix children's security team by a woman named Amber, whose identity was verified and had no affiliation with the hospital or dr Gressman. The woman who's child was harmed during the surgery has never been found and there is no indication her child was ever a patient of dr Gressman.

Rick: Claudia can't explain the IP addresses but she knows without a doubt that these messages are coming from Dr. Gressman's husband, John Gressman

Det Hardina: so you're telling, so you basically are alleging that she goes home and tells him everything.

Rick: He, he, he told us that this person has. Yeah, but I mean, how

Det Hardina: is he gonna know that unless the doctor tells him exactly. Exactly. So you're saying that Dr. Grimsby goes home and tells him everything.

Speaker: Tells

Rick: him? I think so. I think she tells him enough because he said she just wanted me to get rid of you guys. That's what he, those were his words. She didn't know that it was gonna go this far. And so even

Det Hardina: with everything that's going on, right. I mean, he knows we're investigating it, that he continue was continue to do it.

Tanya: well, he would stop while there was an active investigation

Det Hardina: things.

Speaker: Well, this thing's been going on for three years, obviously. And I've talked to him multiple occasions. He probably thinks it's over. No, I know for a fact they know it's not over I'm I'm frustrated. I mean, do you think that they don't get pissed that she doesn't get pissed off? CPS was up to her house last month. all I can go with is what I know. And I have to prove.

Det Hardina: That he's doing this. Okay. But, or I have to prove that you're doing it.

Tanya: Okay. But here's the thing. When you say everyone, all I know is that and I are being harassed. I don't know who you mean by everyone. And

Det Hardina: I, and if you can, well, you don't think Dr. Not getting harassed if she has CPS showing up to her door and she's getting medical complaints made against her.

Speaker: Okay. Yeah. She's getting death threats to her phone. I don't know that

Rick: she, we know nothing about

Det Hardina: this. Yeah. I don't know any. Okay, so death threats. Yeah. I mean, so yeah. She's not, you're not the only one who calls me. Oh

Tanya: God. Okay. Well, I feel bad for her we're all victims.

Speaker: If she's getting death threats and we're getting death threats, we are all being victimized by somebody and it's not right. It's not right. Including for her. It's not. Yeah. And, and I am not doing

Det Hardina: it. I know that you think that someone in my family's doing it, but we're not. I mean, my God, we moved, we put up our house of 20 years. We put it up for sale and, and got created distance. do you think it's someone from your church? No. No, really? I'm I'm positive.Cause I'm looking at, inspector report and it says. That he asked you about abuse by a church member as a possible motivation to send the message you're you're talking about and you replied. Yes. She's good friends with his wife. So yeah, I talking about The detective is refering to an incident involving one of their children.

Tanya: about . Yeah, that, that dude is in prison. Yeah,

Det Hardina: I get that. But does he have friends at the church? No.

Tanya: No, no one ha is friends with him anymore and no, and that was 2006,

Det Hardina: but it is. It isn't beyond that someone from church would do this.

Tanya: It is beyond because nobody in our church would even know doctor's name. I don't

Speaker: share. Well, you're assuming that, I mean, people can find a lot of stuff. Claudia says that noone at her church would know the details about her daughter Chelsea's medical conitions. Only the doctor or someone close to her would know that. David tells the detective that it was the postal inspector who interrogated his daughter Logan and ma

Rick: where, where this is coming from, she, he came up with the, the, the, uh, his answer saying that did it because, because she was UN unhappy with, with the religion. And I, and that's when I told him, I said was in a hospital facility at the time. Some of this was going on, so it could not have been. But he, he didn't want to hear that because he had already made up his mind.

Det Hardina: Well, I'm just telling you there's things I know, and there's things. We look at mm-hmm like when he looked at her tablet, everything's nice and neat. And there's one, one app missing there's a hole or just where one got deleted. And then he found stuff on her phone that you guys didn't know about.

Speaker: That she's been using text me style apps. he looked through. Her, her apps that, that have been downloaded and all he found was all he found was maybe a testing app. That, that was an, an old one that she put in a long, long time ago. Is she there right now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, it's kind of hard for everyone when everyone's in the same room to answer questions. Does that make sense? Well,

Rick: here here's where

Tanya: everybody's.

Det Hardina: Here's . That's what I'm talking about. When he said there's no secrets in your house. It's like, everyone's been listening to everything you've been talking about.

Speaker: So now everyone knows everything about everybody. He just Claudia and David hand over the phone to Logan, the Rodriguez's 31 year old daughter.

Rick: walked into the room

Tanya: just now I just called. I have never even met this doctor. I have no enter. I have no interest in, in doing any of this activity. So it, it can't possibly be me.

Rick: Okay. Tell her what, what happened with the postal inspector?

Tanya: They interrogating you.

Speaker: They went through apps that I haven't had in years. And, and they weren't even the same apps that, that this, that, that, that, that are being used in this situation. They're not even the same, the, the same name of, of the apps that are being used. And, and I, I got accused of, of doing it when I, when it's clearly not me.

Det Hardina: Okay. I appreciate you talking to me.

Speaker: I just wanted to say, I, I I've never even met this doctor. I, I don't care about the situation at all. I just, I just care about it stopping.

Det Hardina: Yeah, I do too. All right. All right. Let me talk to your dad again. you know where I'm coming from? Mm-hmm okay. I don't really care who it is. Not that I don't care, but I don't care if it's him. You, whoever. Okay. All I can do is go with what the evidence follows. Does that make sense?

Rick: Um, yeah, but

Det Hardina: I, I, okay. I don't go off on, I don't go off on hunches cuz hunches are usually wrong and they have to be proven.

Tanya: Nobody's not telling the truth and it's not us.

Rick: Yeah.

Det Hardina: Well, that's for sure. And that usually happens at every investigation, right. Someone's not telling the truth, right?

Speaker: The conversation with the detective lasted almost an hour.

Rick: Okay. Okay. Well, thank you for calling

Det Hardina: me back. You're welcome. Have a good day. You too. Bye bye.

Speaker: Nothing came out of the call with the detective. The case is still considered closed. In order to move this case forward, we're going to need TO FIND new evidence. I recruited the help of a white hat. A white hat is an ethical hacker. This person can use publicly available information to find everythign about you. This guy surfs the dark web for kicks. What can this ethical hacker tell us about the suspects involved in this case? Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): I just got off the phone with our ethical hacker. You remember I was gonna talk to our ethical hacker. Okay. So I basically gave him a rundown of the story. I just gave him. all the information that I, I could on this case if he's doing this, this guy's gotta figure it out. Okay. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): Oh, awesome. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): Yeah. So he's gonna just, full transparency, He's gonna look into you, he's gonna look into He's gonna look into, . He's gonna look into .. I mean, he's gonna look into everybody. Okay. And he's just gonna find suspicious activity. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): Good. Good. Good, good, good. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): So, Yeah. Yeah. And this is a big deal. Okay. Not only Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): I know I'm not gonna look excited. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): this guy knows what he's talking about, he's worked at an internet service provider. He knows what can be done, what can he knows everything about ip, all the stuff that you and I don't know about he knows Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): Right.

Javier: And he's able to explain it in a very clear way.

Speaker: So this will be, this could be big. I don't know. Who knows what he's gonna find? Is he gonna find out about that bank I robbed in Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): oh . You better not be hiding. Jimmy Hoffa. That's what I No, that's great. J are you? I'm so ex. I'm so happy right now. Oh Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): I mean this. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): amazing. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): I mean, he's gonna shake the trees and let's see what happens. if . is doing this, or . they could get arrested depending on what we fight. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): I hope Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): But on the flip side, there's somebody in your house doing this. and you don't know about it. This could maybe, God forbid, is one of your kids and you don't know about it. I mean, who knows what's gonna come out of this, You know what I mean? Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): yeah, we understand the consequences, but I'm a hundred percent positive that no one in my family's doing it. Yeah. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): Okay. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 2): There's no way. Yeah, there's no way. I would be completely floored and stunned and you would have to put me in a mental institution if it came back. That one of these kids is that savvy and nobody here is that savvy. No, nobody Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): that's a confusing thing about this whole thing is that to, to accomplish some of the things he would have to be really savvy. I mean, like really, really savvy. we couldn't even figure out how to make a firewall with a Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): Yeah, I don't blame you. I know nothing has been done yet, but I feel like maybe we're getting somewhere steps and this is a huge step forward in the right direction. Tanya and Rick on 2022-10-11 at 17.53 (Track 1): Well, let's hope, Let's hope. I know some of you at home have made up your minds. You probably think the Rodriguez's are doing this to themselves. But if they are, why would they be so excited about the hacker looking into their internet activity? Why would they want to piss off the cops. It just doesn't make sense. You can hear the genuine excitment in Claudia's voice. To me, it sounds like a woman desperately trying everythign and anyting to bring this to a close. So I called up my hacker friend. My name is Michelle Lahan and I am a cybersecurity professional. I work, I've worked in the industry for 20 plus years, and my specialization is open source intelligence and online investigations.

Javier: Hey, thanks for working on this again, man. but, this is fun. I mean, this was a, I like challenges

Mishaal: This, this is a challenge for sure. Man. It's such a crazy story Now, the more you dig into it, you're like, Huh, I thought this was the suspect. Now all of them seem kind of shady and there's no like evidence that you can point to and say, That's it. I got it. It's like, wow,

Javier: That's interesting that you say that because I feel like the IP addresses are

Mishaal: No, that is, I mean, there's certain facts that you can't deny, which are IP addresses, but then there's, you know, the stories, their, their versions. Of course people lie and stuff. I mean, I do this a lot to a point where I just look at the facts and I make my judgments based on facts. No more emotions because, That can like muddy everything.

Speaker: Um, so you have to have a pretty stone heart to do something like this

Javier: And that's, that's the problem that I'm having is that when I talk to, The, the couple I I believed them because my emotions are wrapped into, I like them, but then I walk away and I can't explain any of this other than what's logical, which is that the IP addresses are coming from their houses,

Mishaal: Yeah. And um, you know, even all those things, what I've been trying to do is kind of fact check these things like, you know, the first thing was IP addresses. What's the source of the truth? the source is obviously the police report, which is fine. And then, you know, why, What's the motive? And even if it's the IP addresses, they have four kids in the house and two adults, uh, which one of them is doing this?

Speaker: You know, the, the father could be playing innocent. It could be him, it could be the mother split personality. The two children have motive, sex offender definitely has a motive. And the other girl definitely has something against, their parents. And so it's like four major suspects right there. And then why they. The doctor and their husband. And the husband also had something fishy because he had all these chat messages, which I couldn't look up cuz they were deleted. I'm like, Oh, what kind of a person says this? Yeah. So

Javier: Well, but we don't know, But we don't know that those Twitter handles were hits.

Speaker: You know what I.

Mishaal: We don't know. You're looking at this, cuz I gave you two things. I gave you the timeline and then I gave you the police report. Right.

Javier: The actual police report.

Mishaal: Yeah, if you look at the last, document, that we were sharing, the last page of that document, I actually posted a mind map. So if you scroll all the way down, uh, you'll see it. Um, that's the mind map that I create as I'm putting the facts together so that I can visualize the picture of the.

Speaker: Mishaal created a digital version of a suspect board. Like the one you see detectives in the movies. But this mind map is much more sophisticated. It connects all the IP addresses, phone numbers, and emails associate with each person. Basically, Mishaal is trying to make a visual connection with all the people involved. And I've already started creating some connections, some dots and stuff to things that are verified, I'm like, Okay, now I'm sure this is the phone number. They're. Because I found maybe five telephone numbers online, and one of them was like the one connected to their Gmail account, or it was part of a breach. They stayed in this hotel, the MGM Hotel, a lot of them and the MGM breach had their true cellphone numbers. Hackers like Mishaal rely on data breaches in the dark web to collect user names, passwords, social security numbers, you name it... from people like you and me. And it turns out that all of our suspects have their private information littered across the dark web. and then I pivoted off of those emails. I said, Okay, where else have I seen this email in a breach? There's an IP address in the breach. There's her passwords, and those passwords reveal others. and then I found an ss i d in her house, so the, the wireless SS id, which the investigator said that I, I saw that all of them were secure. Well, I figured out which ones is hers. It's the s i D that says . So that's definitely hers.

Javier: An SSID isthe name you use for your wifi at home. so the SS ID is the wifi address. You see when you search for wifi, um, names around you. Now we call it technically the ss i d.So these are like, People who scan on the streets, everyone's wifi and they just post it on the internet.

Speaker: So everything you see on the left, um, the social media accounts that, were discovered, the fake accounts, all the phone numbers, I same thing with all the Instagram accounts. None of them are active. I checked all of 'em and they've all been deactivated or deleted. but there is one thing that this, the search warrant or subpoena would have revealed, which would've been key, and I think you can go back and, um, request that with the police officer. so the search warrant. Said that these phone numbers were tied to Pinger. Pinger is the company that owns, textnow, the app. So whoever was doing this had the app text now on their phone and Pinger owns it. There's another piece of information that should have been in that data provided by Pinger, which is the, the hardware ID of the phone that's used, So if they were using an Apple device that Id ties to their Apple id and then you can take that ID and ask Apple, Hey, which one of your accounts was using this id?

Mishaal: Now you have a person, not just an IP address. Cuz IP address means anyone in the home person means that exact phone. So you can. Narrow it down to who was using those VoIP numbers, which phone was using it, None of our suspects had an unusual number of devices registered under their name. All except for one.... Logan, the oldest Rodriguez daughter.

Speaker: If you go up, or in the section for . she has like five devices.

Javier: I wanted to ask you about that, how you can't really tell if those are active phones, right?

Mishaal: no, the, these are devices that she used at some.

Javier: had at some point,

Speaker: the ones on Gmail are likely all active devices because Gmail is saying, Which device do you want me to send that push notification to? So those are all active or at least active till very recently. And then there's two other devices in the pictures you see.

Mishaal: One is clearly a iPad, so you can send messages from an iPad. And the other one is, something else.

Javier: There's a, there's a Samsung picture that you put in

Mishaal: Right.

Speaker: but just knowing that her age and she's a young girl, having that many devices. It may be normal for her. It's not normal for me or my kids, or anyone I know to have five devices, 5 devices doesn't sound like a lot. I know i have one phone and two laptops. One for home and one for work. So that's 3 total for me. What's odd about Logan's list of devices is that she has multiple active phones. Who really needs more than 1 or 2 phones? the postal inspector. Checked her phone

Javier: and I think he did some sort of diagnostic or analysis on the phone, and he realized that there was one app that was recently deleted. Now, he couldn't tell which app it was,

Speaker: but she did not have.

Mishaal: And that was one phone

Javier: and sh Right. And she did not have the texts

Speaker: now. But this is interesting though. The fact that she has five phones out of all the things that you've been able to pull together, that seems like the most compelling evidence so far. Right? It's not a slam

Mishaal: phones on a device. Right. It, but it's something that's pointing towards her. Like, why does a child have, uh,

Javier: And

Mishaal: four or five devices

Javier: And she's not a child.

Mishaal: Yeah. She's not a child though. Yeah.

Javier: I know, but, but that's interesting that even you from like reading this have now assumed that she's a child because she's almost like 30 or something, right? Like what's her

Mishaal: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Javier: She's 30. years

Mishaal: Yeah. She's

Javier: But the way that her mother talks about her, you would think that they were all like minors, right?

Speaker: Yeah. And that's kinda weird and awkward. So you found a lot of interesting activity on the rodriguez family but it doesn't seem like you found much of unusual activity from the doctor and her husband, right?

Mishaal: No, As I, I spent the whole day, the first day just on the doctor and the husband and anyone who they're related to. And it seemed there's, they're pretty normal people have a normal online presence, From what I see right now, they're pretty normal people. never seen anything outside of her profession. Always, medical stuff, posted, medical profiles. She's not active on social media, neither is he. And neither one are in any breaches that I could, check with any other hidden accounts, none of that.

Speaker: whereas the was full of, so many details. So, yeah, I mean, to me, they. Pretty clean,

Javier: and did you do a, a criminal background check

Mishaal: I did. Yeah, I did for both of them. And, um, don't believe I found anything. Not even a traffic violation so she's a doctor.

Speaker: There's an NPI number, there's emails, there's, some breaches. And then . has, normal online stuff. I found a picture of him, I found some emails of him. I found their home with their signature and stuff, so that's pretty clean. they're not trying to hire anything. So yeah, I didn't find any dirt or anything that's questionable online activity from.

Javier: Yeah. You see, the thing is that I, I'm not an expert on stocking, but if you're a stocker, you most likely have stocked other people. Yeah.

Speaker: Some people are very careful, but eventually they make mistakes somewhere, and I don't see any signs of mistakes anywhere. Neither in breaches nor shared passwords, nor any online activity or accounts. and I'm not taking into account stuff that's been deleted because I can't verify that that social media handle was his, the, the Twitter stuff where he's ranting and stuff.

Mishaal: I'm ignoring that cuz that's not a fact to me at least.

Speaker: The, this family doesn't know why somebody's doing this to them, but they square up and down that it's not them and it's not their kids. So their only explanation is that this stalker worked at a internet service provider and somehow he knows somebody who helped him, modify or mask the IP in a way that it makes it look like the IP addresses are coming from their house.

Javier: Is that a remote possibility?

Mishaal: not at all. I have never seen anything like that, and technically it's not possible without actually installing a piece of hardware at their home, which is basically a VPN concentrator. So somebody would have to log in through. a VPN to their home so that their traffic emerges from their home. So anything they do from then on, they go to twitter.com.

Speaker: It looks like they went to Twitter from their home because they have this physical device in their house. So that's, very close to impossible. for normal cases that would never happen and you'd need physical access and they would see something like that. So I don't see that as a possibility in this.

Javier: What about the idea that, you know, you could drive past somebody's house and if they have a weak password or a recycled password on their home router, that you could basically, spoof the IP that way. Is that possible?

Mishaal: So I've done a lot of wireless cracking in my time and, it's possible to crack, weak passwords. If your wifi has a weak password, I can drive past your house, sit in a car for five minutes, collect some of the, the traffic that's going, that's encrypted, go home. Try to decrypt that traffic and if it's a week password, I can maybe decrypt it in half an hour, in an hour if it's a simple password.

Speaker: And then now that I have the password, I, I'll have to go back in front of your house to connect to your wifi and then create social media accounts. But I still have to be right in front of your street, and I have to be close enough so that the wifi signal is strong. but if their street doesn't get the signal strong enough, I'd literally have to stand on their doorstep and, and kind of, uh, play around with social media and stuff, and who has that much time on their hands. And, uh, Surely they would get noticed if they spend that much time in front of house. And I've seen their street on Google Street Maps. It's a small street with not a lot of activity. And if you stand on that street for too long, you'll get noticed, by some neighbor or themselves. And I, I'm wondering how the PI has stood there for. Hours if they did, to kind of cast that person who was going on a bicycle ride or whatever. I'm like, Huh, where did the PI hide? Cause I looked at the whole street. There's one or two trees they would've had to hide in a neighbor's yard, front yard or something. I'm like, They're just sitting there in their car. That would be pretty shady.

Javier: Yeah. And at dark, they, she was able to identify that this dark person on a bicycle was, Yeah. But okay. But you are, you are saying it is possible that.

Mishaal: It's, it's possible if they're sitting right there or if it's a really, good hacker. A professional hacker, they would plant a device in their front yard. They would take a device with like four or five antennas coming out. It would be a fairly visible device and put it somewhere in front of their house so that that device connects to their wifi and that device connects through LTE back to the hacker this way.

Speaker: Remote access to their network and that way it is possible, but eventually they have to come and pick that device up, or somebody would spot it if they leave it there for too long. So again, highly, highly unlikely. And this is, this is only possible if someone paid them a lot of money to kind of, uh, you know, pay the hacker a lot of money to do this, and they would have no fear of getting caught. Or if they were someone so important and, you know, bounty on their hair or whatever. They don't seem like falling under any of those categories. So I highly doubt it's possible.

Javier: Considering that the doctor and her husband didn't even know these people because they weren't even patients back.

Mishaal: They didn't even know these people. And no one else has motive to do something like this. I mean, if the IEP all came from the house, there's plenty of people in the house to kind of, um, point fingers too.

Javier: But what about the theory that John Gressman worked at Cox Communication, the Rodriguez's internet service provider. Is it possible for someone who works at the ISP to make it look like the messages are coming from inside the rodriguez's house?you've worked at ISP and you've, you know that there's, there are protocols in place,

Mishaal: Right. You can just say, Hey, traffic that goes to this, house, let it reroute somewhere else, in order to. A simple route manipulation like that you need, you know, signing off from your manager, you need to open up a ticket, do all those things. If someone's bypassing all these things, then, you know, if they're a rogue employee, let's say they're eventually either gonna get caught or they'll have some connection to this person, or they're paid to do it, they'll get reveal and nobody would, would put so much on the line for something like this.

Javier: Right. The reason why that doesn't hold water for me is that the guy was a writer, producer in the marketing department at, at this Cox Communications, and he wasn't even an employee there when these IP addresses were created. So

Mishaal: He's an employee a long time ago. Yeah.

Javier: I Right. So, but I, I asked because, you know, we have to like rule that out.

Speaker: what's interesting is that the stalker originally created multiple Instagram accounts. That's how he would contact these people. But as soon as the cops subpoenaed them and got the IP addresses, the stalker changed tactics and went with voice over IP numbers,

Mishaal: Well, it means the stocker knew that this is happening. Otherwise, how would a persons sitting behind the internet creating these Instagram accounts, know that they're being subpoenaed? Instagram users are not told that they're being subpoenaed. now that you know what, you know, knowing that the two different parties. could there be a third party involved or is it most likely one of these?

Speaker: It's most likely one of these two. And if I were to pinpoint on obviously one family, it would be the family. And if I go deeper into that, it would, you know, I would have four suspects in this case. and in the mind map, I've highlighted them and read, it's either the parents. Or, it's likely or who know enough about this and have enough motive. I would, that would be my guess, That would be my gut feeling. And, but not the other side. I see no motive from the doctor's side or a third party. There's no involvement of a third party in, in this conversation. So I look at the evidence and the evidence points at their home and it's, it's, it's their own doing.

Mishaal: That's, that's how I see it right now. And I. Trying to find other w ways I'm, I'm doing my research. I was actually trying to look for ways that it's not them and it actually is a third party stalker. I just could not find any evidence, of this. No, No factual evidence, It's, it's just not there. Remember, I, I asked you how you found out about this. That's a big red flag too. They reached out to you because they listen to your podcast. It's like, Oh, we wanna be

Speaker: popular. We want to be on his podcast, Yeah. They're using you

Javier: well, well, yeah. Well, and trust me, I actually told them multiple times that I wouldn't do this because I didn't see any value that my podcast would add to their situation. I could only see my podcast.

Speaker: Making matters worse if there really is a stocker out there. Maybe with somebody like you, I could pinpoint who the bad guy is, but here we're, we're zeroing in back at this family. I see zero point why they want me to do this. The reason why I am doing it is that I'm changing all their names. So attention is what they're seeking. I'm neutering that.. After the break, I'm going to talk to Logan to ask her about her multiple devices. Let's see what she has to say. All right. So I, I had my, my. Ethical Sta hacker, my ethical hacker, go to town on this story. I wanna show you what I presented to him. I've made a detailed timeline of events, and it's a hybrid of your testimony. My, my logs of this incident. It's broken down by dates by day, not even by, So day by day blow. And it's also a combination of what's in the police report. Okay? This, guy has not listened to a single call, so he's not tainted by emotions, right? He did a background check on the two of you. He did a background check on all your kids. He did a background check on the doctor, on the doctor's husband, and he said that he took the approach of rule of just, he did not want to jump to the same conclusions that the law enforcement has jumped to, that you, somebody at your house has been doing this.

Javier: So his first approach was, Just kind of take you out of the picture so that he could figure out, well, is this coming from the doctor? Is this coming from the doctor's husband, or is there a third party involved? So he took that approach first, Well, we ran background checks on both the doctor and the doctor's husband, and they came out squeaky clean.

Speaker: Nothing unusual about these people. all his information is on there, like his credentials, social media credentials, passwords, user names, all that stuff. We have that. Nothing unusual there. there's just nothing unusual about them at all. They just see, I know that that's not what you want to hear, but there is just nothing unusual about these people at all. So, that being I did a background or he did a background check on, on you and .. And I would like to just, just so that we can confirm the kind of information that he got. So ., you tell me if this is true or false. I will not put this information on the podcast, Okay. All right. Is your, the last four digits of your social? ..

Rick: Yes.

Javier: Okay. Um, let's see. I just want to confirm some of the things that I got. So you were a part of a couple data leaks, Uh, MGM being one of 'em.

Speaker: Your date of birth is Right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Moving on to Tonya.

Tanya: uh oh,

Javier: Ti. Nope. , you're good too. Everybody. The bottom line is everybody's good. Okay? Nothing unusual, like you're not gonna find any surprises here.

Speaker: Okay? Um, last four digits. for date of birth. Okay. I ran down the list of information I found on them, just to confirm all the information we found. You have a lot more to be concerned about. I'm gonna read you some passwords. Of course, I'm not gonna air this. I promise you. Password for .. And.

Tanya: from a long time ago.

Javier: What about .?

Tanya: That was a long time ago.

Javier: you've been in a part of several breaches as well, so this is why it's important. I, I know I've told you this several times, that you have to get a password manager because and that's a terrible password. You know what I mean? you gotta get something a little bit more substantial than that.

Tanya: I ran through all the information I found on their kids. I started with the oldest son So we did the same thing with .. I mean, we found what, what we already know some speeding tickets, Uh, like $145.

Javier: Then I transitioned to their oldest daughter Logan.

Speaker: and ., let's see, a lot of social media. I mean, it's common with younger people, right? Okay, So this is probably the most unusual thing that he found, So the most unusual thing that I think that he was able to find is the amount of devices that are active under name. Okay? So there was a significant amount of devices, but how many phones and tablets does she.

Tanya: As far as I know, she only has one working phone and one tablet. But I mean, she's gone through several devices

Javier: Oh, we all have, right,

Tanya: Yeah, like they'll break or they'll crack

Rick: or whatever. I gave her an an iPad that she ended up losing.

Speaker: So you say she has an iPad and what, what kind of brand phone does she have?

Rick: She just

Tanya: changed. Um, I think she has a Samsung S 22 that she just got through Google. Mm-hmm.

Javier: Yep. Okay, so we have listed. I like a Galaxy tablet too. Uh, the, the Galaxy S 22, and we also have one that matches,

Tanya: Yeah, that was her old phone and I have a Galax C S 22 that I just got a couple of months ago.

Javier: Yeah, but these are associated with her and an iPad. But what's unusual about this is that the way we were able to tell that they were active devices is because these are all have been signed in through Google recently.

Tanya: Okay, so that being said is that we can't chalk this up to that. These were old devices, right? Because when you go into Google to try to retrieve your password, it gives you, which device do you want me to send this, thing too. And if you're not using those devices, Google takes 'em off. Okay.

Javier: traffic violation, no registration dismissed. Right? Uh, she got a, she got a marijuana card. Is that even legal? Is that legal In Arizona?

Tanya: Yeah. Yeah.

Javier: That's cool. All right, so let's see. of course, nothing unusual. nothing unusual. We got, I mean, social media accounts, right? Um, let's see. Chelsea, Dr. Gressman's former patient has a facebook page but doesn't appear active. Then there is their other disabled child James. James is never mentioned in the police report or in the postal inspector's investigation. And Claudia and David rarely mention him. Because he's person with a mental disability, it's easy to assume he's not a suspect. But looking at his twitter and other social media accounts, it's clear that James is capable of composing phrases. It's also interesting to note that his last four posts were retweets fora Youtube prank channel. I found this extremely interesting. But Mishaal Khan, our ethical hacker says not to read too much into it. Those retweets predate the stalker and says that the kid has no signs of stalker activities. He's probably just a fan of pranks.

Speaker: Now here comes the part where I break it to Claudia and David that it's highly unlikely that this stalker is masking their IP address,. Gulp. he did a couple other things, right? So, He kind of explained to me, I think what's important about this guy is that he was able to tell me how masking an idea, an IP address works, right? Like if that's even possible. And he basically described to me that yes, it is possible, right? It is possible. We know it's possible, but it is highly unlikely. And the reason is that there's only so many ways that somebody could do that. Claudia and David were told by an IT security expert that someone like John Gressman who works at COX does have the ability to mask their IP address. But... this IT expert was missing a few key pieces of information. Now, the way that Anthony,Kosar. He was under the impression that, that because this doctor's husband worked at the internet service provider, that it is possible that he could have been buddy-buddy with one of the tech guys who showed up to your house and possibly. different or swapped out routers and that's how he did it, right? So technically Anthony's right, it is possible, but highly unlikely considering that, the IP addresses were created way before he even started at Cox Communication. So I could almost rule that theory out the door, right? but it's still.

Javier: Right. It's still possible for this to happen. And how can it happen? Well, just similar to the Cox communication guy coming in and swapping a box. Well, somebody could break into your house and, and add a device and they have to have access to your, Inside your house to do it basically to your router.

Speaker: And, and that's probably not happening cuz you probably didn't notice a break in or anything. Another way that that could happen is that this guy could be parking really, really close to your house so that he can get a signal to get into your network. But in order for this to happen, he would have to do it, a lot. I ran through everythign Mishaal khan told me. And they stayed silent on the other end. But the point is that he has to have access to inside your house in order to really accomplish this. And it is an opinion of, of this guy that, that, that is probably not likely at all. we were grasping at straws, so it's his opinion that, that probably not the doctor, that it probably is somebody from inside your house.

Tanya: right? Mm-hmm. I don't even know what to say. Mm-hmm. , Are you there?

Javier: Yeah, yeah, I'm there.

Rick: Well, I've been, I've been told by, by the police that they, they knew that, that we had, That we had, changed our, our, um, our modem, we've actually seen ., I'm, we've, we've seen 'em down, down the street from when we went to walk, Walk our dogs.

Speaker: And he flashed his light and made a comment about that later on. And also, Mary, the, the pi, she, she saw him right riding his bike in, in, in our neighborhood. So I, I know that he was close. He was close by and prob, and he even took that picture from our driveway,

Javier: with the rain, with the little puddle of water.

Rick: right? So I know he was close by.

Tanya: Well, here's another thing.

Speaker: Um, So this happened a couple of months ago, but, I can tell when, when my daughter's being sketchy and lying to me , cuz she has a very strong physical reaction to, me catching her red-handed, so to speak anyway. Mm-hmm. . So one day . had taken my car to work and I needed to run up to the store. So I asked her if I could borrow her car. and she just acted really sketchy and she turned blood red flushed, got really flustered and I immediately knew that she probably had something in her car that she didn't want me to see, which is exactly what happened. And so cuz she knew that I was gonna get pissed off at her and, um, she, she gave me such a strong physical reaction that I didn't even have to ask. So. I, we have talked to all of the kids, including , numerous times about the stalking situation. You know, having the FBI help us, um, trying to get the postal inspector to help us, law enforcement, the podcast. And I've never seen her react in any type of a negative way. Like, leave the room, gets blushed. So I, I'm, I'm just kind of taken back right now. Well,

Rick: plus the plus. Uh, when, when she drove to the Grand Canyon to attempt suicide right after that, we took her immediately to the, to the psych, to the psych, hospital over there And they watch you like a hawk in there. They keep an eye on her, kept an eye on her 24 7 and on our way, on our way home from there, this, this activity was going on.

Javier: Yeah, I know. I mean there's a lot of circumstantial stuff that, it makes it really hard to explain what, Okay, so here's the conclusion, just to make that clear that what he said was, it's not that he thinks it's it's not that he thinks is . Or you or anybody in that house. He's not saying that all he can say.

Speaker: It's coming from that house. You know what I mean? That's all he's saying. Right. I asked Claudia and Rick if I can speak with Logan. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): How's it going? is . still available? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Yeah, it's just, um, really upset her and she feels like this is gonna be an interrogation and we're trying to tell her that you're not going to interrogate her. this is victimizing her as well, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): No, absolutely. I I don't know how to not make it an interrogation, but I wanna make it as casual as possible. Cuz 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Okay. And do you think that it's okay if maybe I talked to her in private, where she could speak a little bit more freely? Is that. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Um, I don't know. Morgan, do you wanna speak to him in private or do you want one one as present? It's, let's tell him on speaker every time she wants you on speaker, because I shouldn't even be involved. She said she shouldn't even be involved cuz she's, That's how pissed off she is. So we're going, we're gonna stay silent. Okay. Hang on. Right. Here you go. Well, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Hey Morgan, it's Javier. I'm sure you've heard a lot about me, . I've been talking to your parents for 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): have, I, I, I, I have, I'm just really pissed off because I don't even know this doctor and, and I, it, the, the, the suspicion keeps coming back to me and, and I don't even have the time to, to be, be even engaging in this activity. I work five days a week and I have alibi. I was in the hospital with no internet access. When, when this was going on and, and I'm pissed off. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. No, I, I understand and that must be super frustrating because a lot of people that you don't know and that they don't know, you are casually just saying, we know it's the house, so who could it be? it must be Morgan, right? Because, we looked at her device and there was an app that was missing or whatever, but. I, that's not what I want to accomplish today I don't want to grow you, I don't want to interrogate you. so let me ask you about you and your life, cuz I don't know anything about you, You say you work five days a week, Is it at a movie theater? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Yeah, I'm a, a supervisor at a movie theater song. I'm constantly busy and rarely on my phone, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. Believe it or not, I used to work at a movie theater too, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): that's. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah, it's a neat job. So you work really weird hours, I would imagine, right? Because you work. like weekends, nights, I would. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Yeah, I, I, I work every single weekend and I, I work throughout the week and sometimes I, I don't even get out of work until midnight or one 1:00 AM so you're about, what, 30 years old now, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Yeah. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): and have you ever, I know you live with your parents now, but have you ever lived outside, uh, on your own or with a roommate or anything? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): No, I I've never done that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really, it, um, expensive to, to. even have a, a one-bedroom apartment. do you have any plans on ever doing that or? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): I, I've, I don't have any, any set plans right now. So let me ask you another question. So you're busy at work, you know, you work five days a week, you work kind of long hours, but you, you stay at home. Do you have anything else going on in your personal life? Like do you have, friends or boyfriend or anything like, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): I, I've, um, only, only really have like my, um, My, my coworkers that I, that I talk to sometimes, but I'm not super, super close to them, and, and I, I don't have like a whole lot of of friends out outside of work. Let me ask you something about your devices. How many like cell phones and laptops and tablets do you have. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): I have a cell phone. And then I, I have one that, that I, it's, it's a, it's a old one because I, I just got a new one and I, I don't even use the old one. It's off and it's not even charged, and I even did a factory reset on it. I, I, I, I don't, I don't use it at all. And, and then I have a tablet that I only use when, when we're doing our, our, uh, religious activities. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. Is that the iPad or is that the Galaxy tab? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): it's a Galaxy tab. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. And do you ever use that iPad? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): No, no, I, I, I, I, I only really use it to, to do, um, any, any religious activities that we're doing. And are you pretty big, into the church, like your mom and dad are do you go to church often with them? 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): I, I, I do, and I, I, I'm working more on my, my, my spirituality. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. Is that something that's always been strong with you 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): I, I've, I've always been pretty, pretty strong, but, um, I, I've, I, I struggle with, with, uh, depression and, and recently it's been, it's been, um, uh, Seeping into my, like, uh, religious faith and, and I, I've been having some doubts, but they're, they're, they're getting a lot better. I'm not pointing your finger at you. Uh, I, I recognize that all this evidence, you know, is pointing back to your house, but I wanna make it clear to you. That's all I know, right? Factually, I I don't think anybody can point their finger at you it's all hunch is at that point, 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely frustrating and it, it's, um, taking a, a real effect on my mental health because I, I don't even know who this doctor is. I don't know what she looks like. I've, I've never met her before. I, I. Have no interest in i I I have no, I have no interest in, in being, being involved. Well, thank you. that's how really that I wanted to talk to you about. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 2): Okay. Well, it was, it was nice speaking. 2022-10-20 +14808860352 on at 14.20 Morgan (Track 1): Yeah. All right. and thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

Javier: I mean, you can't dispute the IP addresses, you know?

Rick: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's very rare for frustrating, and, and I don't, I don't, david recognizes how this all looks. But he says he can't point to a dozen different things that when you add them all up are equally as puzzling as the IP addresses.

Speaker: I, I don't, I I don't think that, I mean, I, I know your, your diet is, is, is credible in the way you were talking about 'em, but I don't think we can, we can say, we can throw the, the, the guilty sign on, on anybody in our house because of all the other, of all the other, physical evidence that, that we, that, that we've gone. So there is a lot, there's a lot to it that, that isn't backed up by, It's not sitting the puzzle, it isn't backed up by the, by the science of it all.

Tanya: This case is a slow burn. It's been going on for years. There have been quiet months where nothing happens. But if you wait long enough, the stalker always returns.... with a vengence. Each time, the attacks get worse. Just recently I woke up to this call.

Speaker: Hey Javier. It's Tanya Fernandez. It's literally 4:15 AM in Arizona on Friday. Um, morning. Anyway, if you wanna give me a buzz, I have something to tell you. That's absolutely insane. I didn't record the call but apparently, Claudia and David were woken up by police and instructed to slowly exit their house with their hands up where they can see the,. Claudia describes half a dozen cop cars fanned in their front yard. According to claudia, police got a threatening text message from Claudia's own number. It's not clear what the message said or why it warranted this type of police pressence. But it sure sounded pretty dramatic. Once tensions settled down, police checked Claudia's phone and were not a ble to see an outgoing message on her phone. Police have since come back to their house to tell them that they're forwarding the messages to a detective who is working on the case. Stuff like this happens all the time. And there's never going to be a statifying ending upntil we can identify the stalker. Until then, all the fingers are pointed at Claudia and David. Maybe they're making all of this up. Maybe it's their kids, or maybe the doctor and her husband are really behind this. It doesn't seem like we're getting any closer to a resolution. Yeah, . Well, I'm not in a good head space right now. I'm pretty pissed off and Livi. and, um, I don't know. I just feel like nobody's really, I don't know. I don't wanna say nobody's backing us up, but that's how it feels.

Javier: Oh, I, I think that you're absolutely right. I mean, who's, who in a position of power is bagging you up? , Um, you have all the evidence, like car, as much as you wanna deny it, the evidence, it's not looking good. this case has very little evidence, and the only evidence that it does have is those stupid IP addresses, and it does not look good.

Speaker: You know? Tanya and Rick: What is your thought process

Tanya: on this whole mess?

Javier: Okay. When I talk to you guys, when I talk to you, , it's crystal clear that I believe you're a hundred percent, because it, it's like I, I hear your frustration, you know, like I hear it and I've been talking to you guys for over a year now. why would anybody do this to themselves? You know what I mean?

Speaker: it doesn't make sense. Like that. Part of it to me is equal to the IP addresses because it's crazy. It's crazy. Here's the thing, if they were, if I were just Talking to you. I'd say well you're crazy right? But I'm talking to But I'm talking to Claudia and David. . You know what I mean? Like, how could you both be crazy in sync?

Javier: You know, like people don't usually share a mental health disorder, that's not the way it works. if, if, if you were indeed crazy, right? How could you both be crazy about the same thing? So that doesn't make sense to. But the other thing that doesn't make sense to me, and, and this is really hard to, to wrestle with this, is those IP addresses and the fact that they, they were created, those accounts were created before you, both of you had ever met this doctor.

Speaker: Why would the doctor be obsessed about a patient they don't even know about? And then why would you be obsessed about a doctor you don't know about? Like, that doesn't make any. Tanya and Rick: Right,

Tanya: exactly. But no one's listening.

Javier: I gotta tell you, you asked me what do I think when I talk to you guys? , I believe you wholeheartedly. I, I believe you. And then I walk away and I tell somebody about this and it sounds ridiculous.

Tanya: It does sound

Javier: like, it doesn't even make sense.

Speaker: And I'm like, No, but you just have to hear these guys. They're, they're such nice people. They're genuine people, but that's not, you say IP address comes from their house and that is Kay's clothes for everyone who I've talked to. And so, um,

Tanya: See, that's not right. That's not right. And yesterday when you were like, It's not possible. And it's not, not, you know, A level. I'm not gonna lie. I got pissed off at you. I was mad, I was pissed.

Javier: Well, yeah, I mean, it's impossible. Like I don't think he's that smart, you

Tanya: Well, he must be. Somebody's got the brain because we are not doing it.

Javier: I mean, that is a level of stalking, and here's the thing that it's just to listen in on your phone calls. I. That's, I mean, I'm not saying that that's impossible. I just, you know, I've never heard of that before, other than like the government doing it, you know?

Speaker: Tanya and Rick: Yeah, well, well, if you think about it too, he's got plenty of time and he is got plenty of money because she's a doctor. So he has, he has plenty of, of, of, you know, time to time to study and, and learn how to, how to be the worst guy in the world. I'm going to contiue following this case just like I have been for the last few years. When something new happens, I will post it on my PRETEND plus subscription channel on aPPLE PODCAST and on my patreon channel. Until then, I'd love to hear what you think. Find me on social and send me your thoughts.