S301: The Prophet - Word of Faith Fellowship Cult Revisited

Javier: Hey guys, it's me, Javier, and I'm back with a whole new season for you. But this time it's gonna be a little different. Instead of me telling you a different story each week, well, I decided to do a serialized season instead, where I tell you a single story over multiple episodes. So what is it? It's actually about the very first episode I ever aired on this show. It's about the Word of Faith Fellowship. You know, back in my first episode, I met up with a man who lived near me, who says he escaped a cult. His name is John Cooper. So I contacted him and said, "Hey, do you want to meet up?" I told him, "I'm thinking about starting a podcast and would like to tell your story." But I didn't want to meet him at his house. I mean, he is a former cult member, and I didn't want him to come to my house, so we just met up at a park in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. At this point, I didn't know what Pretend Radio was about. I honestly didn't. And I didn't know much about his story either. All I knew was that he was in some sort of religious sect. I didn't know how bad the allegations were. And what he told me that day in that park blew my mind. But in the end, I feel like I didn't do the story justice. Like, that's just one guy's story. I needed to go to the other side of the state where the cult is located and do a little bit more digging. So I got in my car and I drove west. And after spending a whole day in Spindale, North Carolina, I thought to myself, "There is no way that I can keep everything I just learned in one episode." I said, "There's so much material. This has to be its own season." So if season one was about John Cooper, season three is all about the town of Spindale, North Carolina. This episode that you're about to listen to is actually my first three episodes rolled into one. And I'm gonna stitch them all together by playing some ads for some nonprofit organizations. And at the end of the episode, there's a preview for the new season. Now, many of you have already heard this story, but trust me, even I had to go back and listen to these episodes. If you're new to Pretend Radio, well, this is a great place to start. Once the season starts, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time setting things up. We're just gonna get right to it. Let me tell you, it's pretty crazy. I got deeper into this story than any other journalist. The BBC has tried and failed. The Associated Press tried, and they couldn't get in. Even A&E is producing a documentary right now on the Word of Faith Fellowship, and they didn't even get the access that I got. In fact, I had the executive producer call me to ask me how I did it. So enjoy this flashback episode as you revisit The Prophet from Season 1, and get ready because Season 3 is coming very soon. All right, here we go. Let's do this When I first met John Cooper at a park in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, he told me about a night where his pastor, Jane Whaley, called for a meeting with some of the church's younger members. You see, some of these young adults found themselves in trouble with the church, and they needed some sort of intervention. He remembers Pastor Jane Whaley saying...

John David Cooper: You know, "Y'all are so out from under authority, and you're all, you know, given to so much sin, and you're so wicked. Um, and so y'all young people need to get together and, like, have a revival of sorts." There's probably about 40, 50 young people that were all told to show up. And so we show up on Monday night, and, and people are talking and sharing and whatever, you know, like they normally did, reading scripture.

Javier: They were asked to go around the room and confess their sins. John remembers he and his wife were just sitting there quietly, just waiting their turn.

John David Cooper: You know, they're all going around and kinda talking about what God's doing in their life or what sin God is convicting them of. Uh, and... But I w- I was just sitting there being quiet, like, uh, like trying to figure out what am I gonna say, right? Well over half of people have already said something, and they're kinda working their way around. And my wife and I are both just being, like, really quiet over here in the corner. And so they kinda turned on us and were like, "What are y'all giving to?" Like, "What are... You know, why are y'all sitting over there, um, you know, not, not opening your heart?"

Javier: Then things escalated quickly.

John David Cooper: And like almost instantaneously they were like, "You have unclean in your life. You're, you know, you're given to the unclean. You're doing something wrong." And of course, they didn't know anything. They were like, "Something's going on between y'all." So they, they, like, grabbed me and, like, dragged me out of the chair and threw me on the floor. And then at some point, you know, it all becomes like a blur because, like, there's, you know, 40, 50 people, you know, uh, just, like, mobbing you, and they're all yelling at you.

Javier: John remembers the beatings going on for 20 to 30 minutes.

John David Cooper: And so they start yelling at me. And then, you know, one of them, like, sits on my legs, and then another one's, like, grabbing me by this arm and just, like, violently shaking me back and forth. And I ended up, like, with bruises on that arm, just, like, finger marks, you know. Um, and then, you know, there was people behind me, like, whacking me in the back and shaking me around, and people grabbing my head, and then, you know, um, somebody grabbing the other arm. So I was like, you know, just, like, kinda held down. And then this guy who's... just sits on my legs and starts punching me in the chest, like, just punching me in the chest. And so he's just, like, punching me as hard as he can. And they're all at this point doing their blasting prayer, where they're all yelling.

Javier: Blasting, which you can hear in the background, is an ear-piercing screaming prayer that lasts for hours. We'll talk more about this in a bit, but at this point you may have figured out that this isn't your typical Christian church I'm Javier Leiva and this is Pretend Radio, stories about real people pretending to be someone they're not Before she was ever a pastor, Jane Whaley described herself as the wife of a preacher and a stay-at-home mom. Her husband, Sam, he would travel, you know, overseas for work, and sometimes he would leave Jane to pastor the church while he was away. At first, it was a little hard for Jane to assume the role of pastor because she grew up believing that women weren't allowed to be in the ministry. But God spoke to her husband, Sam, and God said, "Jane is the pastor." Later, Jane says she, too, spoke with God, and God told her the same thing. In 1979, God spoke to Jane again, and this time he told her to start the Word of Faith Fellowship. Since then, the Associated Press has interviewed 43 former members who have described years of terror, physical abuse, and isolation, all in the name of God. The world didn't know much about the Word of Faith Fellowship until the late 1990s when it was investigated twice for its treatment of children. But eventually, they were cleared. It wasn't until 2013 when a young man named Matthew Frenner led law enforcement to investigate. Matthew Frenner claims church members gathered around him in the back of the sanctuary and began deliverance or beating the gay demons out of him. He said that's the church's way of curing his homosexuality So what's the difference between a cult and a religion? Some may argue there's no difference at all. Religions and cults do have some commonalities, but then again, so do country clubs and fraternities and sports teams. I mean, there are some clear differences between a legitimate religion and a cult. First, a cult typically has a single unquestioned leader who makes all the rules and doesn't have to answer to anybody else. Often members have to live together in isolation with little to no interactions with friends. Cults are known for extreme recruiting methods, often depriving their members of sleep and food as well as performing brainwashing techniques. The Word of Faith Fellowship exhibits all these traits and some. To me, it's the alleged abuse that concerns me, and the fact that some of it may still be happening today. When John Cooper described to me the day that 20 people beat him repeatedly in the chest, he said that degree of violence wasn't typical.

John David Cooper: They would typically shake you. They would typically slam you on the floor and hold you down and, you know, again, shake you back and forth and yell at you. But, like, they wouldn't often use their fist and punch you. They, they might actually, you know, hit you or, like, use both hands and kinda, you know, hit you in the chest.

Javier: Shaking and slamming members on the floor is a form of deliverance meant to get the demons out. John says that that part was very typical.

John David Cooper: It was a very public thing when I was there. Like, in front of the whole church they would beat you up or, you know, throw you on the ground or whatever. So, um, I watched my cousin, like, get thrown through the drywall, like, uh, in front of, like, probably 100 people.

Javier: When church members got violent, they would also perform blasting prayers. Blasting, which is how Word of Faith members pray, it's almost unbearable to play on radio.

John David Cooper: Sometimes it was just a yelling sound like, like, "Ah!" You know, just like no, no particular words, right? Sometimes, like, the prayer was more, was more they were praying with you, right? You know. Other times, you know, it was praying at you. It was dealing with you for, for your sin, right? And in those cases, there was a lot more of the yelling at you and yelling specific words. And then oftentimes they would actually yell for you. Uh, so, so what they would say is like, they would say what you should be saying, 'cause they expected you to be participating. They expected you to be following along with them. So they would yell, you know, "Forgive me, Jesus." Some kind of modeling, like this is what you're supposed to say, right? You know. And they weren't saying forgive them, right? They're, they're telling you to say that, basically, and you're expected to say, "Forgive me, Jesus." And then they would say, you know, "Change my heart, Jesus," and you say, "Change my heart, Jesus." You know. And so, and you got 20 people around you yelling a v- all different things at you.

Javier: John and I are sitting at a park listening to blasting prayers that he was able to

John David Cooper: record before he escaped. Even me not growing up in a normal environment and not knowing what normal was, like, I still had enough sense to, like, know certain things are just really weird. There was actually a phase where Jane was telling everyone if you have an unclean thought, which, you know, like, you, you see a girl and think, you know, "Oh," like, "She's attractive." Or, you know, just catch... Even if you don't think any active thought, but, like, it just catches your eye. Like, a girl catches your eye, that's unclean, and so you should, uh, blast that unclean. And so, like, she, she actually had people standing up in the middle of church service and just yelling out, like, 'cause she told people to do this. Like, it doesn't matter, like, if, where you're at, where, it doesn't matter where you're at, um, you should, like, blast it in that moment.

Javier: Unless you're in public. Church members are not allowed to perform blasting prayers in front of non-church members. If that happens, well...

John David Cooper: If you're in public and it happens, then you need to go into your car and, and blast.

Javier: So, so for example, we're in church and they're talking up there and I see a girl and I have, like, an impure thought-

John David Cooper: Yeah ...

Javier: I should just start yelling-

John David Cooper: Yeah, just- ... a

Javier: warning? Like-

John David Cooper: Yep, yep. So that, but that was a phase. That was a, a short phase. Okay. And then I think she realized that it was crazy, 'cause like- I would imagine that startles

Javier: people, like Oh,

John David Cooper: yeah, 'cause it was startling people. It was, like, interrupting the church service, and there were a few people who, uh... Again, like, people are trying to get to heaven. Like, people legit buy into this. And so some of these people are, you know, like, legitimately every time they had an impure thought or, or noticed, uh, a guy or a girl, you know, they, uh, would, would do this. And so there were, there were a particular group of people who just kept, like, interrupting the church service because they were taking it so seriously, right? And the rest of us are just like, "Oh, please." And you can't laugh. Oh, definitely not. No, definitely not. Um, yeah, that was another thing you could get kicked out for, and I did at, at times where, like, something happened and it just was so silly.

Javier: I asked John about the disturbing reports of child abuse involving infants. John says that babies weren't normally beat up, but they might be shaken and held down.

John David Cooper: I remember, you know, like, little babies just, you know, screaming. And so they're, they're sitting there blasting them and just, like, holding, holding them where they can't move, you know, and the baby's, like, trying to, you know, fight or whatever, you know. So yeah, they, they blast babies all the time. Like, if your baby's crying and, like, you can try, like, giving him the bo- the bottle or, you know, putting him to sleep or changing their diaper or whatever. But, like, otherwise, like, you... If... You know how babies just cry occasionally, and sometimes you don't know what's going on. Babies. Yeah, it's a baby. But that is, like, demons or something. That- that's demonic. That, that is the devil tormenting that baby 'cause, uh, uh, a good, godly baby, like, should be peaceful. And so if your baby is crying and you can't figure out the reason, then it must be the devil tormenting them. And so they, you know, like, parents would, would blast with, like, blast at or with f- their baby for, like, hours sometimes.

Javier: Eventually, the baby would quit crying.

John David Cooper: They blast it for an hour or two, and the baby finally, like, stops crying and goes to sleep, and they say, "Oh, it finally broke. I mean, that was a really severe attack from the devil." Yeah. I'm like, "No, the kid, like, yelled until they got exhausted."

Javier: Either way, they were gonna keep going until that demon broke. When I asked him how they treat their elderly, he said they would scream at them, but for the most part, they weren't physically abusive So who is Jane Whaley? What is she like? How can one person have so much control over individuals, a congregation, practically an entire town? I mean, why don't people just leave?

John David Cooper: But I was like two or three years old, you know? Th- this is my, like my memory of like not even being tall enough to see like over the people in front of me to see her, but just hearing her yell like at the top of her lungs.

Javier: Over the years, Jane made it a point to isolate herself from others. Even before church service, she would hide in her office.

John David Cooper: Uh, Jane, like, didn't mingle with us, right?

Javier: They would get started without her, and when she was ready, she would come out and preach.

John David Cooper: So we would like sing basically until she was ready, and she would like show up, and then everybody would be like, "Okay, we can stop singing." And then she would, you know, talk. So that was my interaction with her over the years, was like seeing her from a distance and being like terrified of her because, like she was the ultimate authority. Um, Jane was always like the ultimate threat. So like, you know, if you're disobeying, you're not doing what they tell you to do, and you know, and they, they might threat- threaten you with a spanking, and then, you know, you're like, "I don't care. Go ahead and spank me," you know? And then they would be like, "Oh, well then I'll call Jane." Y- and that was scary. Mm-hmm. Like really scary. Um, so that's all I knew, was like she was like the boogeyman. I was so terrified, like terrified to speak to her, terrified to like look at her the wrong way, you know? And like I was a kid, you know? I just ... And so like if she was coming down the hall, you'd be like, you'd be like putting on your best face, smiling, and then be like, "Don't yell at me," you know? 'Cause like she would randomly just, you know, hear a story about you, you know, from someone else who reported you, right? And then just like come up and just yell at you or You know? So she spanked me a few times as a kid, and I was like, I was scared of her more than the spanking, you know? Like, I remember just like physically just shaking as a kid when I had to like talk to her or something, you know? Um- 'Cause

Javier: she's not physically threatening, like in terms of like-

John David Cooper: No, no. Like is she- I mean, she's an old lady, you know? Yeah. So she's, I don't ... She's probably about 5'4", a old white lady with, you know, uh, like this golden colored hair. Uh, I, I remember Jane, you know, very explicitly, and I have a recording of, of her, you know, saying, you know, "Throw him on the ground and get their devils out," or that kind of thing. Often she would say that.

Jane Whaley: Why didn't you get him and throw him to the ground and get his devils out?

John David Cooper: Grandmother, I need to talk

Jane Whaley: to you by yourself. You can talk to me by yourself, but not now. That's a seductive devil right there. Your dad, every one of them should have turned around and took you to the floor and got those devils out of you.

John David Cooper: She would talk about, you know, slamming people into the wall or whatever. Um, and then we watched it happen, like, so many times.

Javier: So is Jane just pulling a fast one on everyone or does she really believe what she's preaching?

John David Cooper: I definitely think, thought growing up that she bought it and I still do. I, I, I think the more likely explanation is she's just that crazy. Like, she actually believes, um, in what she's doing. Um, and she, like, be- actually believes that she is a, you know, a prophet, an apostle. Like, she actually calls herself an apostle of God.

Javier: Again, just as a refresher, cult rule number one, you need to have an unquestioned leader. Rule number two, you need to isolate your members from the rest of society. Word of Faith Fellowship does this by making everyone believe that they're going to hell. In order to get to heaven, you have to go through Jane first.

John David Cooper: Because Jane speaks for God, because Jane, you know, is the one who runs everything and basically whatever she says is what God said. You know, she always says like, "This is what God told me to tell you," or, you know, "This is what God is saying." So this was the only place in the world where they were doing things right. Um, and even if you're in the church, you're not guaranteed to go to heaven, right? Like, Jane would even, you know, just was constantly, you know, yelling at church members or, you know, uh, from the pulpit saying, you know, how, "Y'all are all wicked even, and you're going to hell," um, unless you, unless you repent, unless you change your ways, unless you basically follow what she was telling everyone to do. Um, and so just that in and of itself, as a kid, um, I know that probably to you and probably to a lot of people who didn't grow up with that kind of a threat, um, it, it probably feel... It, it just seems like a foreign idea to actually be scared of going to hell for questioning something. Um, but, like, that was legit.

Javier: I'm not a psychologist, but this sounds like a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome where hostages align themselves with their captors in order to survive. What else could keep these people from leaving when the door is wide open?

John David Cooper: And I, to be honest, wasn't as scared of being physically abused as I was of like being isolated or, you know, like a lot- To me, a lot of the psychological tactics were actually like worse.

Javier: So tell me about, so the isolation was always there. Like when you say isolation, it means like you can't play, like you're being punished, or you're physically isolated and you can't-

John David Cooper: So there were versions of it. There were like degrees of isolation. So, um, they, again, they called it like church discipline or church discipleship.

Javier: When a kid misbehaves, they are kicked out of school and sent to a special class where they are not allowed to talk to each other. This is the first degree of isolation.

John David Cooper: There were very limited freedoms, but whatever those were, were taken away, and you weren't allowed to do schoolwork, so you had to, you know, sit there and read your Bible, um, and then often just listen to hours and hours and hours of, of tapes. So they had, you know, um, when I was really little, like cassette tapes

Javier: What, like you're sitting in this room and you're like, obviously you don't wanna be there.

John David Cooper: Right.

Javier: What do you do? You like, do you watch the screen like ?

John David Cooper: Yeah, you could make a choice to look away and not watch the video, you know, while you're on isolation, but, um, but that would just make it last longer.

Javier: Is there somebody there watching you watch the video?

John David Cooper: Yeah, yeah. There's a always a teacher in there and they're watching you, and again, it's only a couple kids. And how- So like- Is it like

Javier: an hour or is it-

John David Cooper: No, it's all day.

Javier: And that's the mild version of isolation.

John David Cooper: The more severe versions, there's actually multiple more severe versions. So you could be like on, on a more severe version where you were like isolated, um, at home and like not even allowed to come to church.

Javier: Not going to church means you're not going to school, which means you're not gonna see your friends. You're basically left alone for days.

John David Cooper: Probably the longest at any given time was like a month or two. Um, and Uh, but other people like my brother, one of my older brothers, um, was isolated for, I wanna say about a year. What happened to my brother was that, like, not only was he isolated at home, not allowed to come to school, not allowed to do anything, he had to, um, stay in his room and, uh, and like not even come down for dinner. Like, my mom had to take a plate to his room, and then when he was done, she would go up and get his plate and bring it down. Like, he wasn't allowed to ... We weren't supposed to make eye contact with him. He wasn't allowed to talk to us, see us. He had to stay in his room.

Javier: What could a kid possibly do to deserve being isolated for a year? John says his brother and four friends were kicked out for giving in to foolishness. Foolishness is a term they use when kids get out of line.

John David Cooper: Literally, they were kicked out for over a year because they had been telling jokes and, like, cutting up in class. That's what they were kicked out for, for a whole year. So that, that's what I mean in terms of like, yeah, the physical abuse was bad on, at times, you know, that, I mean... But like the psychological part, like that's what I dreaded. I, I did not wanna be kicked out. Like that's, I mean, like I remember just very vividly, like that's what I was scared of

Javier: Then it got worse. In the early 2010s, around the time John was in high school, Jane instituted the worst version of isolation. Jane felt that too many men and boys were having erotic thoughts. She sent them away to get disciplined in what is now known as the lower building. This, John says, is where the worst abuse happened. Dozens of men and boys were forced to live here until they got the demons beat out of them. It's not just John Cooper saying this. 42 other former members told the Associated Press the same horrifying story. The AP reports that even some school-grade boys were placed in a makeshift prison with other adults. They say as many as 30 people were crammed into the building at one time. Picture this, the lower building is a one-story, four-room building with very few beds. Many had to sleep on the ground. There were no bars on the window, but occasionally someone would try to escape. They were eventually found, returned, and beaten.

John David Cooper: Of course, by this time, uh, the physical part had changed to more of the, you know, less of the spanking and more of the beating and pushing. And, um, Jane would talk about it from the pulpit all the time and talk about people that she sent down there and, um, talk about how evil and wicked they were.

Javier: Fortunately for John, he was never sent to the lower building, but others close to him weren't so lucky.

John David Cooper: Like I didn't see my dad just for like a whole year, just like never.

Javier: Wait, he was in isolation for a year?

John David Cooper: Yeah, or longer. I'd, I'd have to ask him the exact time. Oh my God. But I just, I just like did not see him for probably over a year. Yeah.

Javier: Jane Whaley reportedly shut down the lower building in late 2012 when she feared the police would maybe one day pay her a visit.

John David Cooper: They had kind of disbanded the lower building by that time because again, uh, anytime they felt the heat, they would change what they were doing. I remember vividly that when this story broke, Jane like, uh, called together a group of like 30, 40 guys, um, and, and sent 'em all down there and was like, "Y'all fix that place up fast." So evidently they went down there, they cleaned it up, you know, only had a couple beds left. Um, like new drywall, new paint, new, uh, I think even new carpet. I don't know. They like, they totally revamped that place within like 24 hours.

Javier: The raid never happened

John David Cooper: I'm voting in the midterm elections because- My constitutional right Because my ancestors died

Jane Whaley: To make it better for my children The

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: women before me fought

John David Cooper: So we can remain free Helping the community out Midterm elections I

Jane Whaley: know every vote makes a difference My opinion matters

John David Cooper: I vote

Jane Whaley: I vote I vote In the midterm elections. Would you have allowed Steven to do

Javier: that,

Jane Whaley: though? If he'd have ridden up like that, I would have. You would have allowed him? But I would have.

Javier: This recording is a bit hard to hear, but basically John Cooper says it's a conversation between Word of Faith Fellowship pastor Jane Whaley and John Cooper's brother, Peter. Peter's questioning Jane if she thought it was okay for a church member to throw someone against the wall.

Jane Whaley: If he'd have ridden up like that, I would have. You would have

John David Cooper: allowed him?

Jane Whaley: But I would have.

John David Cooper: Right. But it's not right to use force like that. That's what I, that could have caused further

Jane Whaley: And they say, "You wouldn't be serving God today if some force were not used at you. I could never have kept freaking out of you

John David Cooper: You know, so basically the implication was like you should grab them and shake them and whatever, and it's fine if they hit the wall, you know? And so then Peter was like saying, "Well, that's not right that you use force." And you heard her, you know, yell and say, uh, you know, and then say, um, "You wouldn't be serving God today if some force were not used at you."

Javier: Today we're gonna talk about John Cooper's multiple attempts to escape what some describe as a cult. If you Google the Word of Faith Fellowship, it's become synonymous with horrifying rituals, physical abuse, and forced isolation. If what John is telling me so far is true, why would anyone want to raise their kids in this kind of environment? I asked John, and when his family moved to Spindale, North Carolina, things weren't so bad.

John David Cooper: So I was one. I don't remember anything before that. Um, I just kind of grew up there not knowing anything else, and then, like, as I got older, started to realize things were weird.

Javier: Uh, tell me, like, uh, because from everything you re- you read about it, it sounds terrible, right? Like-

John David Cooper: Yeah ...

Javier: just, but was it always as bad as they describe? Like-

John David Cooper: No ...

Javier: was it like from always that intense?

John David Cooper: No. No. So, like, uh, when I, when I was a kid, what I remember more was like-

Javier: More like your typical childhood. He played with neighbors, he watched TV, he read books. At this point, the worst abuse hadn't started. But things weren't always so peachy. He says church discipline and spankings were always a constant. Since before he could remember, church leaders were always in control.

John David Cooper: As kids, like, we weren't supposed to actually talk to each other without an adult being present. They called it having a guard. If you were ever caught just talking to your brother or your, you know, your classmate or whoever without asking an adult to listen to your conversation, like you, you were supposed to, like, lock in and say, "Can I, can I talk to so-and-so?" Uh, and, and then they had to, like, listen and make sure that you weren't, you know, saying something you shouldn't say. And so if you didn't do that, you might get spanked. We were supposed to only talk about essential things, like if we, you know, bumped into each other, you could say sorry. You know, like, there were limited things you were allowed to say without an adult being present, but of course, we would try to run off and just, you know, talk, so.

Javier: And this is all before it got bad.

John David Cooper: Right.

Javier: Right?

John David Cooper: Right.

Javier: This is like ... So as a kid, do you walk around, even though it was normal for you, like, did you walk around, like, in constant, like, fear that, like, you know, any wrong move Yeah.

John David Cooper: Yeah.

Javier: Did you ever say, "Dad, you know, what's going on?" Like, is this-

John David Cooper: No, I was scared to talk to my parents about it. I mean, they were the ones, like, controlling me half the ... You know, they were the ones, like, doing this stuff for Jane, uh, or influenced by Jane, obviously. But, like, they were the, if you will, perpetrators in that case. So I did, on occasion, I guess, tell my mom. I remember one, one time, you know, riding with her in the car, um, and I remember, like, saying, "I'm done, Mom." And I was like, I was a young teenager, like, I don't know, 12 years old or something, and I was like, "Uh, I'm done. Like, I don't wanna ever go back to that school or that church." And she, like, flipped out and, like, screamed at me and was like, "How dare you say that?" And you know, "You're gonna go to hell." And again, all those normal things. That was one of the few times I remember actually saying it to her. Like, I thought it all the time, but I was scared to say it, but that was, like, one of the few times I kinda mustered up the courage to say it and just got yelled at for it. Um, so yeah, I could, I could never really have that conversation with my parents, but I had that conversation with my brothers all the time and with a few friends.

Javier: What's interesting is that at one point, his mother and father almost did leave the church.

John David Cooper: I do remember a period where they were trying to leave, and, uh, they were, uh, like, they were going to leave with most of us, but the problem was at that point, like, there's so many of us, some of the older siblings were living elsewhere, and my Basically, the threat was, "If you leave, then, like, you're gonna lose at least several of your kids."

Javier: So at that point in your life, did you realize that they wanted to leave, or is- No,

John David Cooper: so we

Javier: were- ... that something you learned afterwards?

John David Cooper: Right. So we were never ... I didn't know what had happened. All I knew was that, like, uh, some of these ministers were always coming over to the house. Like, I knew something big was going on behind the scenes, um, 'cause, like, you know, these people were coming over. Uh, they were sleeping with us. Like, actually, one of them slept in my room a couple nights, and ...

Javier: It could have been the threat of losing some of their kids or something else entirely, but the fact is John's parents decided to stay. Now John is an adult and he's ready to leave, but there's a problem. He fell in love and now has a wife. It's easier to leave when it's just one person, but now there are two, which got me thinking, how did John end up with his wife, Jessica? The answer is it wasn't easy. According to John, the church controlled every aspect of his life. He says kids have to report unclean thoughts and expose their sins. That means no flirting, no lustful thoughts. Can you imagine how hard it must be to meet a girl and fall in love?

John David Cooper: Having thoughts about girls, um, smiling at girls. I, uh ... So before my wife and I were married when we were, like, in middle school or high school, I, like, smiled at her once and, like, got, uh, we both got, like, uh, spanked and, uh, kicked out for a couple days or something. Uh, like, you definitely weren't allowed to touch ever, uh, not even hold hands, not, like, nothing, n- no hugs, nothing. Like, it's, it's abnormal for a probably a young guy not to think about, you know, a, a sexual interest. And so, you know, they ... I guess they, you know, know that. And so, like, it was nonstop. Like, if you weren't reporting something, then they would assume that you were lying and that you were hiding, uh, what, your thoughts. And so you almost had to from time to time give them something. And so I would do that occasionally. Like, I would, you know, self-report something. I, of course, like, the ... I would report it in such a way that I knew, like, I would only get a little, you know, reprimand.

Javier: If they suspect any sexual deviance, John says they'll surround you and confront you.

John David Cooper: They'll say, like, "Something's up with you." Um, and so they all get in your face and start yelling at you, "You tell us what's going on. You tell us what's going on. You're giving to the unclean. We know you are." The way it works is, like, you have to ask Jane or her daughter Robyn, um, initially to, like, be friends w- what they call be friends. So they don't use the word boyfriend and girlfriend because that's worldly, and they don't use the term dating. Um, they call it walking out of friendship. They, they have all their own lingo for things. Um, and, and so yeah, you have to ask to, like, walk out of friendship, and then, a- and so then they have to approve it.

Javier: It's not like the Word of Faith members have prearranged marriages. He says they just have to approve who you choose to be with. Most of the time they would approve. Other times they won't. And when John asked to be friends with Jessica, Jane said yes But the whole reason I'm bringing up John Cooper's love life is because of what happened next.

John David Cooper: So I remember one time, and it was actually my wife, where they were dealing with her. That's their terminology, dealing with you, right? I remember one of the ministers telling me to throw Jessica on the ground. And I was like, no, I won't do it. This is

Javier: before you were married?

John David Cooper: Yes. But she told me to do it. And I was like, no, I will not do that. And so somebody else jumped in and did it. And you

Javier: watched it?

John David Cooper: Well, yeah. I mean, if I would have gotten in the way, then they do it to me. And so there were times when I tried to stop what was happening or tried to say something to intervene in some way. And they all turned on me. And then I got beat up. And that person still got beat up.

Javier: Eventually, John and Jessica got married. Here's Jessica speaking to the congregation during the wedding.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I was just crying out, "God, I want what you have for me. Whatever it is, Jesus, that's what I want." And that's when God dropped John-David in my heart at the same time that God put me in his heart, and we started walking out the relationship, and it was wonderful, and I knew it was gonna be forever.

Javier: Then John grabbed the mic.

John David Cooper: I'll never forget, um, Jane and Sam told us they would be our grandparents and, and this has been the best place for me. I've ... I love this place.

Javier: I can't judge the sincerity of their comments. Maybe they were just playing along. Maybe they had a change of heart. I don't know. One thing's for sure, John wants to go to college and experience the real world. But like everything else at the Word of Faith Fellowship, it's not gonna be easy. For one, the church won't allow him to enroll at a four-year university. He has to start at the local community college first.

John David Cooper: If you went to college, um, you had to be on sort of a buddy system. Typically, there was like five or six other, uh, college-age people who were with you. Um, sometimes they would actually put like older adults in the classes with you. You know, everybody was kinda monitoring each other. So, um- In

Javier: college?

John David Cooper: Oh, yeah. Like- How

Javier: would they put older adults?

John David Cooper: Yeah, so there was one, uh, this lady named Bonnie.

Javier: Bonnie is said to be one of Jane's proteges.

John David Cooper: So Bonnie probably took, I don't even She took the same classes over and over for years there, um, to be, just so that she could be in there and, and like watch. So yeah, Bonnie w- took hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of classes. Um, again, like I said- Yeah ... often repeating the same class over and over and over just to be in there and watch, you know, these, these college-age kids. Um-

Javier: And the university didn't think that was weird that the college student

John David Cooper: Oh, I'm sure they did, but they allowed it, you know.

Javier: After community college, John convinced Jane to let him finish his bachelor's degree at Wofford College 45 minutes away in South Carolina. He could go, but under one condition. He has to go with his brother, Peter.

John David Cooper: My brother and I first started college again after being separated for 10 years. It was like we were both scared. Like, is he gonna tell? Am I gonna tell? You know, and, and so sometimes we told on each other just because we were scared that the other one might, you know? And, um, until we realized, oh, hey, he's not telling the ... Like, you know, you could do little things, like very little things and n- and like see, like, is he gonna tell? And then he didn't, and it was like, oh, okay. So it took a little while, but, um, but it was nice because like we got to a point where we realized that we could still trust each other, and, and then we were able to kind of not embarrass ourselves the way that we would have had to, um, if it would have been someone else with us.

Javier: Embarrass themselves? Yes, apparently Word of Faith members are supposed to make a scene in class if the professor offends them in any way.

John David Cooper: Like, if they wanted to play music for any reason, you were supposed to just, like, publicly, like, tell them, "No, you can't play music 'cause it's against my religious beliefs." Any music, a- and then just walk out and, like, make a scene of it. Like, you- Did you ever do that? Um, so a few times. I didn't want to, but, like, the question was either I walk out with everyone like I'm told to, or I know as soon as I get home from this class, I'm, I'm isolated for however long and probably kicked out of college.

Javier: For John, getting kicked out of college was a real threat. Getting kicked out for even a semester could be a real setback. Not only that, it was his only escape.

John David Cooper: Even though we were by ourselves there, like, we were always having to check in, and they knew our schedule, and so if we tried to do anything... You know, so basically what I'm saying is, you know, could never hang out with friends, could never really do any activities. So yes, we got a small taste, but it was pretty much limited to just whatever happened in the classroom because we weren't allowed to do much else.

Javier: John and his brother Peter graduated college and were planning to go to medical school. John got accepted to UNC's Medical School in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. But there's a problem. John's brother, Peter, he didn't get in, and the buddy system fell apart.

John David Cooper: Again, you know, the buddy system was such that we had to go together, and so Jane was like, "You know, you're not going without him." I was already wanting to leave, again, for a long time, but that was kind of what pushed my timeline because I knew I had to, like, take that opportunity.

Javier: At this point, John is married. He was trying to figure out how to start this conversation with his wife

John David Cooper: So, you know, just broaching that conversation with her and saying like, um, you know, like, "I wanna leave," is like a hard thing to start because like if you say, if you say that and they get you in trouble, then you're, you know, you go through all the normal, um, normal discipline.

Javier: And that actually happened when they were first married.

John David Cooper: There had been a point where she had tried to leave, and I knew that, which was part of the reason that I was, like, comfortable marrying her 'cause I was like, "I know she's wanted to leave before. Hopefully, we can get married and then leave." I knew she would wanna leave, and so what I said was like, "Hey, if you would've left, I would've left," you know, um, 'cause we had been dating at that time. And, um, and you know, she, like, reported me 'cause she was scared or whatever. Ag- again, you don't know if you can trust each other, and, and there's, there's so many ways of y- of you getting in trouble. Like, sometimes people crack under that pressure and, you know, uh, and go tell on themself. So say we were together, I did something wrong, and you were like, "Oh, I'm not gonna tell on you," you know? And then later on I get convicted. I get, you know, um, my kinda guilty conscience takes over, and I'm like, "Oh, I have to report myself for all these things that I've done." And so, um, you know, you go, like, confess.

Javier: So if you wanna leave, you first have to overcome the psychological barriers, like the fear of going to hell, then you have to prepare yourself for possibly losing your family. In John's case, his wife, his mother, his father, his siblings If he leaves, he will lose the roof over his head and his car because even though it was his car, the title was under someone else's name.

John David Cooper: I had to convince Jane to let me get the car in my name. Um, and I told her that I needed to build my credit, and she believed me. So, um, so it worked out, but it took a few months of preparation and trying to get things lined up. And then, like, where are you gonna go? So you're losing everything. You're losing your, your income, your, your house, you know, everything. So, like, where are you gonna go? Um, you aren't, you don't really have friends on the outside.

Javier: Luckily for John, he had the number of a friend who managed to leave just a few months before him.

John David Cooper: It worked out, uh, such that I finally, like, had somewhere to go, where I had someone's number, and I was like, uh ... Yeah, and I called him up, and I was like, "Hey, can we come, like, crash at your place until we can figure this out?"

Javier: John wasted no time. The day he got the car title under his name, he was ready to make his move.

John David Cooper: It was a Wednesday afternoon. We got that title in our name, and they had church on Wednesday night, and so I was like, "This is so perfect." So what I did was I, I, like, got dressed, ready to go to church that night. They were living with his wife's parents. So we told them, "Oh, we're, we're heading to church. We're just gonna go to the gas station and, you know, fill up the car," which we did. So we went to the gas station, filled up the car, made sure we had, you know, gas, and just, like, waited there, um, until, like, 6:30, which was the, uh, the time that church started. And so right at 6:30, we figured everybody would be gone from the neighborhood, um, 'cause there was a lot of, of members who lived in that neighborhood. So we, like, zoomed back into the neighborhood, grabbed, like, grabbed what we could fit in our car in, in, like, 10 minutes, and, uh, and, like, and hiked it out of there. I was prepared to, like, never, you know, see my family again.

Javier: John was the first in his family to leave the church. Then two brothers left, leaving behind their wives. Since then, most of all the siblings have left the church except for one. Eventually, his parents left the church.

John David Cooper: We don't talk a lot about it, uh, just in general terms, like they've apologized on, on many, um, many times. The thing too is that my parents didn't know everything that was going on, even, you know, with us. Like stuff would happen at school, but we were like told, "Don't you dare go home and tell your parents." So like they didn't know half of the abuse. You know, like yes, they spanked us at home, and they controlled us and, you know, followed the rules, but like they weren't physically, uh... Well, other than if you call the spanking abuse or not is, I don't know. But like they, they never beat us or punched us. Um, like they weren't physically abusive in that way.

Javier: John remembers getting a call from his parents shortly after he left.

John David Cooper: Um, told her that Jane was not allowing me to go to med school, um, and she didn't realize that either, um, that those meetings had been happening and Jane had been saying I wasn't gonna go. So, um, so once I explained things to her, like she didn't believe me at first, but she, you know, 'cause like that's a long mental leap. You know, what, the things I was saying was kinda implicating that Jane was wrong. And so again, now she's having to go through her own kind of struggle I'm sure. Um, and so then her and my dad started talking to my other siblings, and then my other siblings were kinda corroborating what I was saying.

Javier: So what happens now? After all the allegations, law enforcement investigations, what now?

John David Cooper: I know the psychological abuse is still in place. I know the isolation is still in place. So they, they disbanded the lower building, right? Because, you know, the public found out about that, so that changed, you know. Uh, but those people were all still isolated. They just were isolated at home, you know. Every, you know, it changes but it stays the same. And, um, and so that's why like I know that, uh, they're still abusing people. The people who have left after me are still telling, you know, stories of how they were, you know, how the abuse has continued, um, but just changed in different ways. It took me a while after I became an adult to get out just because of the logistics and the, you know, all the control that was in place. Um, and so, so I understand that. But what, what really I care about is like the kids who are there. Um, it, you know, I was that kid. I mean, I didn't know any different. And, um, I remember just my whole life like thinking of wanting to leave and like, "How, how am I gonna get out?" Like, "Where am I gonna go?" Or, you know, um, and just like crying at night or, you know, just feeling like tortured, you know? And, uh, and so that's why I wanna like wanna talk about this. I wanna make something happen. You know, it needs to stop.

Speaker: Archival:

Javier: Today, let's try to look at this story from the perspective of the Word of Faith Fellowship. It's gonna be a little tricky, considering I haven't gotten a response from the church. I've reached out to church representative Joshua Farmer several times, and still haven't heard anything back. So I decided to give Pastor Jane Whaley a call on her personal cell phone. What would happen if I called her?

John David Cooper: She'd blow you off, probably.

Javier: But, like, would she answer the phone?

John David Cooper: Doubt it, but she might

Javier: This is it. I have one shot to get this right. My strategy is to tell her upfront that I want to tell her side of the story, and that I want to learn more about her faith. But if she answers, I have only a couple seconds to make my case and prevent her from hanging up. So I find a quiet space and I dial her number Okay, here goes nothing. I'm gonna call Pastor Jane Whaley and see what she says. No answer, so I try again. This time, this time someone picks up. Hello?

John David Cooper: This is Javier Leva. Um, I'm calling 'cause I'm doing a story on the Word of Faith Fellowship, and I really wanna tell your story and your point of view and what you believe in, and not... You know, we don't have to talk about the allegations at first, but I definitely want to- Uh, sir? ... know what

Archival: you're about. Yeah? Sir, e- ex- excuse me? Uh, you have the wrong number.

Javier: Whoops. That was awkward.

John David Cooper: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Um-

Archival: Uh,

John David Cooper: what's your name? Do you go to the Word of Faith Fellowship?

Archival: No, I do not. I'm, I'm sorry, I don't really even know what you're talking about, sir.

John David Cooper: Oh, okay. Okay, no problem. No problem. Okay, thank you for your time.

Archival: Yeah.

John David Cooper: All right, bye.

Archival: Have a great day.

Javier: You too.

John David Cooper: Bye

Javier: So I can't get Jane directly, but we do have a statement released by the church. It says, "We are shocked and saddened to learn of the false allegations made against our church by certain former members." It goes on to say, "We do not condone or allow abuse in any form at our church, period. These false allegations were predominantly made by members of an extended family. The allegations to the small group of people should be viewed in contrast to the number of faithful members in our large congregation." It's true, the Word of Faith Fellowship has 750 members in Spindale, North Carolina, and nearly 2,000 members in churches based in Brazil and Ghana. The press release ends saying, "We remain hopeful that the public will see through these fabrications and see them for what they are." We've heard a lot about John Cooper, but what about some of the people that he left behind? What do they have to say? Unfortunately, I just can't drive up to the church because it's tucked away and it's closed to the public. However, I do have some video testimonials from some of the Word of Faith Fellowship members. You see, the church has a YouTube channel devoted to telling their side of the story. Let's start with Amy.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: My name is Amy. I was married to Peter Cooper, a former member of the Word of Faith Fellowship.

Javier: If you recall from the last episode, Peter was the brother who went to college with John Cooper.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: And I realized I had to get out of that marriage because there was nothing left. All his motives were to use me. He wanted to get me to lie like he is today.

Javier: She's visibly shaken.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: And I absolutely was not going to lie about the people that I love, because the things that he says are not true. He didn't want me talking to any of the ministers unless he was there, because he wanted to record them. And then he would take me to these meetings, and we would sit down with his family. They would play recordings. They would see how they could alter these videos to make a story, to make it sound the way they wanted it to sound To use it against innocent people, against lives that never did anything but care for them.

Javier: Also, the video's a little choppy, so I can't really tell if the church is cutting it down for time or if they're just feeding her lines in between takes.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: They say that there are 43 that are coming out speaking against the church. Let's just take one look. You have a whole family and their cousins, their wives, and a few close friends, their children. That adds up to 43 very quickly.

Javier: The Cooper family alone makes up a good portion of the people speaking out against the church.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: So this is one entire family that is choosing to bring out stories

Javier: Sean Smethurn, John Cooper's brother-in-law, had this to say.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: So John David wants to paint this picture and twist this to fit his narrative that he was psychologically controlled and manipulated by Jane Whaley and his every move was dictated to the point where he couldn't buy a car, couldn't get married without the permission of Jane Whaley. The truth is he didn't have money to buy a car because he hadn't held down a job and he had been going to college and didn't have any credit.

Javier: He goes on and on about the car for a minute.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: John David wanted to go to college, and we were all right behind him. We worked to get him a car, worked to get him tuition paid, gave him housing. We lived together. And he was shown nothing but love in our family. So how does he stray so far to come back and try to make it that we're the enemy?

Javier: So what about John's claim that the church stalked him after he left the church? This is John speaking at a town hall meeting about what happened.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: It was her parents that actually followed John. When he talks about, "There was a truck that followed us and, and they were hacking our phones," and... It was her parents who were genuinely concerned about the safety of their daughter. They just up and left, and we had no idea if she was in danger, what happened. So there's no truth that he was psychologically controlled and he had to overcome all these obstacles. He was given everything and the road was paved, and even after he left, he talks about, you know, they had to do it all on their own. They were still supported by her parents, um, mainly really until he got his Navy scholarship.

Javier: So how does Sean rationalize John Cooper's anger against the church?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: When it really started changing, when I saw, started seeing John David change was two or three years into college when he started being swayed by some atheistic teachers. He started questioning whether Christianity was true and whether that was the religion for him, and nobody tore him down or demeaned him because of it, but tried to help him. And he moved away, everybody still supported him. But now he's come back and he wants to bring harm to us because his beliefs are different than ours. He wants to endanger my family. When you attend a forum and lie and tell people, "They abused me, they beat me," what does that want, make you want to do to those people that committed these acts? It makes you want us to hunt them out. Well, this is in my town. I have, uh, a little girl and I have another one on the way. I don't take them out in public right now because of the hate that's been incited by these lies.

Javier: So what do others in the church have to say about the accusations? Benjamin McGee says that the Word of Faith Fellowship is just an ordinary church. There's nothing illegal happening.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I've been here for 22 years, and I don't know anything about the abuse that has gone on in this church because there was none. To what extent are these guys willing to go to lie, to prove their story, to make their agenda, whatever they want to do? How far are they gonna go with it? How, how bad are they going to lie? That's my question.

Javier: Benjamin says these aren't hostage videos produced by the church.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: There's nobody forcing me to do this video right now, and by the way, I have no teleprompters in this room. I'm speaking of my own accord. I travel as I please. My friends come and go as they please. We talk together when we want to. We do anything we want to do, and we're very happy here in this church

Javier: In season one of Pretend Radio, you heard from a man named John Cooper who described the years of physical abuse carried out by Jane Whaley's followers.

Blasting Prayer: Forgive us, Jesus!

John David Cooper: They, like, grabbed me and, like, dragged me out of the chair and threw me on the floor.

Javier: Forgive us, Jesus. Forgive us. We're getting untruth. Forgive us, Jesus. This time, I'm going to dedicate an entire season to the Word of Faith Fellowship to answer questions I left unanswered. Who is Jane Whaley? Is she a prophet of God, or is she just profiting from her followers? How did she rise to power? And is it true that she has human slaves working for her? Let go of God's will with each other. That's right. I'm gonna do my best to answer all these questions, but the truth is that the more I start digging, the more questions I still have. And at one point in this season, I get so deeply tangled in this story that I actually become part of it.

Blasting Prayer: What's the matter with us? We're not gonna birth God's will. That's right. That's right.

Javier: This season is full of surprises, and true to form, there's a shocking development halfway through. So stick around and join me as I unpack this story one episode at a time. I'm Javier Leva, and this is Pretend Radio, season three: The Prophet, coming soon.