Javier: Kenneth Hagin was born in 1917. They say he was born with a deformed heart, and even with a misshapen heart, he continued to push on, but he never really had a chance. The doctors told his parents that he had an incurable blood disease, and that it will eventually kill him. When Kenneth Hagin turned 16 years old, he died three times within a 10-minute span. After his third death, his mangled heart started to contract, and his weakened lungs began to expand. He was alive, but this time he was unable to move his body. Kenneth Hagin laid there paralyzed in a hospital bed. It wasn't until Kenneth Hagin started reading the 11th chapter of Mark's gospel that he was truly born again.

Archival: "Ye shall have whatsoever ye sayeth. Therefore I say unto you what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

Javier: Kenneth Hagin asked God to be healed, and he believed that by the power of his own words, his prayers would be answered. He will go on to become known as a father of the Word of Faith movement. He dedicated his whole life preaching Mark's gospel, that if true believers ask for salvation, good health, and fortune, well, they'll receive it. And if you don't receive prosperity, well, that's because you've given Satan control over your life.

Archival: If the fire, and that's what it felt like, fire, in your hand jumps from hand to hand- then there is a demon or an evil spirit in the body that's causing the problem, call him out

Javier: He believed that Jesus wasn't poor. Oh, no. Jesus and his apostles were wealthy, and you too can be rich if you just believe. I know, I know, some of you are rolling your eyes, but trust me when I tell you that Kenneth Hagin's beliefs are actually more common than you realize. Kenneth Hagin is dead now, for real this time, but his teachings are very much alive as part of the Rhema Bible Training College. More than 23,000 pastors have graduated Rhema Ministries, and chances are there are Rhema-affiliated churches where you live. In fact, your pastor may have studied at Rhema. But this story is not about Kenneth Hagin. I just told you his background so you could understand how we got here and what happens next. This story is about his fallen apprentice. Actually, his apprentice's wife. Her name is Jane Whaley, and she claims to be the prophet who communicates directly with God. In Season 1 of Pretend Radio, you heard from a man named John Cooper who described years of physical abuse carried out by Jane Whaley's followers.

John David Cooper: They, like, grabbed me and, like, dragged me out of the chair and threw me on the floor.

Javier: This time, I'm going to dedicate an entire season to the Word of Faith Fellowship to answer questions I left unanswered. Who is Jane Whaley? Is she a prophet of God, or is she just profiting from her followers? How did she rise to power, and is it true that she has human slaves working for her? I'm going to do my best to answer all these questions, but the truth is that the more I start digging, the more questions I still have. And at one point in this season, I get so deeply tangled in this story that I actually become part of it. This season is full of surprises, and true to form, there's a shocking development halfway through. So stick around and join me as I unpack this story one episode at a time. I'm Javier Leva, and this is Pretend Radio, Season 3: The Prophet. You can say a lot of things about Kenneth Hagin

Archival: Word of knowledge brings a revelation of the spirit, where discerning the spirit, you actually literally see them. They, they look a whole lot, some of them look a whole lot like a, a, a small monkey. You understand what I'm saying?

Javier: You can call him a Christian extremist who preaches the fringe interpretations of the Bible.

Archival: Uh, the, the, the most hideous one of all of them is, is, is a homosexual devil. Now, that's the stinkiest devil.

Javier: You can say he leverages people's faith to build his fortune and empire.

Archival: We thank you, our Father, for your precious holy word.

Javier: Or you could call him a good man who spoke with conviction and provided many people comfort.

Archival: Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, I preached long enough. I can preach longer. I never even got to my first point here.

Javier: But almost no one will accuse Kenneth Hagin of physical abuse or authoritative rule over his followers. With him, you are free to believe or not. That's just not the case with Jane Whaley. Jane Whaley's flavor of Christianity has every ingredient of a cult. So how did it happen? How did she go from being one of Kenneth Hagin's evangelists to now the infamous ruler whom so many fear?

Jane Whaley: Why didn't you beat him and throw him to the ground and get his devils out?

Javier: Well, here's what we know. Jane Whaley, whose maiden name is Jane Brock, grew up Baptist in a small town in North Carolina. In high school, she was on the swim and soccer team. After graduating Appalachian State University, she got a job teaching high school math, and she met a man named Sam Whaley who worked as a car salesman. Soon, she fell in love. They got married. They had a baby girl named Robin. Those who knew Jane back then says that she was actually very motherly, and she showed spiritual guidance to those struggling with drugs, alcohol, or in bad marriages. By all accounts, they lived perfectly normal lives But back in the '80s when Sam Whaley, Jane's husband, got a job as a staff preacher at Rhema Ministries, his job was to travel the world and preach the prosperity gospel. Pray loud enough and God will answer your questions. And while Sam was away, Jane began to assume control.

John Huddle: In 1985, it was my understanding that Sam was the dean of missions. He traveled to different countries. Um, I've heard him say as many as 130 countries. But while he was away, Jane was having what she called Holy Ghost meetings in Tulsa, attracting quite a crowd and-

Javier: This is John Huddle, a former Word of Faith member. He says Jane was going rogue and performing her own deliverance sessions.

John Huddle: The meetings Jane was holding were attracting quite a crowd, and they were getting bigger and bigger, and seems to reason that some of the people going to those meetings would also be Rhema students, and so that would cause confusion. The doctrine that Jane was teaching included the idea that even those that were born again could be oppressed and in some cases possessed by the devil, which, that were not necessarily approved by Kenneth Hagin Ministries, not part of their doctrinal belief system.

Javier: John Huddle says that Kenneth Hagin gave Sam an ultimatum. "Either you get your wife under control, or you can leave the church."

John Huddle: And so when it came right down to it, it was not only the doctrine, but the practice that separated the two groups. The idea of someone being born again and filled with the Spirit of God and in addition being filled with the devil or oppressed by the devil, it didn't agree with the doctrines at Rhema. And for the most part, the Protestant, the non-Protestant faith as a whole doesn't believe that. It's my, it's my understanding.

Javier: And one day, boom. Sam and Jane Whaley left Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were they forced out? Did they quit? We don't know for sure. With them, they brought back 22 true believers. Free from the shadows of Kenneth Hagin and his ministries, Jane was free to preach her version of the gospel. It's during this time when God spoke to Sam, saying, "Jane is the pastor

John Huddle: Sam would tell the story that God spoke to him directly and said that Jane was supposed to be the pastor of the church. Jane goes through this long presentation about how she was not willing. She didn't want to be the leader. She didn't feel like she was a pastor, and God had to convince her. God had to plead with her and tell her she was to be the pastor of the church. And then when Sam heard it also, then he felt like it was the will of God.

Javier: And just like that, her husband Sam stepped aside. So what is Sam Whaley like? We never really hear about him. In fact, in the rare time somebody brings him up, they say he's super friendly and always laughing. He's one of those guys that has a story for everything. The kind of guy who can disarm you with a smile. The same skills that taught him how to sell used cars are probably the same skills he uses from the pulpit.

John Huddle: Sam Whaley has the personality of a good old Southern boy that wants to be liked and wants to please people. He didn't want people to be mad at him. He wants to have the approval. And so when survivors come out and they're saying that as children, they were afraid of Jane, they never said they were afraid of Sam. God told Jane she was in authority. He told Sam Jane was in authority. And so Jane's in authority.

Javier: What do you think the real story is there? Because that just seems... I mean, let's, let's assume that God didn't say this, right? What do you think the strategy was? I mean, it just seems kind of weird that, you know, you have this ordained minister, Sam Whaley, and all of a sudden, you know, she takes control. I mean, what do you think was really happening behind the scenes?

John Huddle: Well, behind the scenes, I mean, who's to know for sure? I mean, if, if you look at it and reverse engineer it, Jane has turned out to be the Stronger personality wearing the pants. She has blossomed and bloomed into a controlling leader that Sam never could have been. Sam didn't have the, the personality to be the strong leader that Jane has turned out to be.

Javier: To this day, Sam Whaley is the only ordained minister at the Word of Faith Fellowship. But I get the sense that his wife Jane, not an ordained minister, never really cared for his brand of leadership.

John Huddle: There was a time when Jane would actually accuse Sam of reading the Bible too much. She would say in front of everybody that he had religious devils, that he was not hearing and walking by the Spirit of God, that he was caught up in a false religion thinking he knew something when he didn't know it, thinking he was hearing by the Spirit of God and he wasn't, thinking he was walking as a minister and he wasn't. And she would say this in front of the whole congregation.

Javier: So when did Jane's preaching style turn violent? Well, the first account of abuse I could find was a 54-year-old woman named Carol who says she was suffering from a prescription drug reaction. But Jane and her followers didn't buy it. For them, Carol's illness was clearly a result of a demonic possession.

John Huddle: What came out, or in the end, was that she was having a, a reaction to medication. But inside that group, they don't believe in psychiatric care, psychiatric counseling, that, that kind of thing. And so from what I learned, they secured her, tied her to a bed for one s- one, some might even say 13, some might say 14 days. And they did that because they felt like they believed that she was given over to demons because she was masturbating all

Jane Whaley: the time. Forgive us, Jesus.

John Huddle: They saw that the only way to help her was to give her deliverance. Forgive us, Jesus. Forgive us. And so for that period of time, she was in one place, secured to a bed. Later, it was determined by another physician that she was having a reaction to the medication she was being given, and it was very sad. It was very sad.

Javier: Blasting, if you remember from Season 1, is a screaming prayer Jane developed to exorcize the devil.

Jane Whaley: We're not letting Each other. That's right

Javier: It's her signature style of deliverance Jane claims that blasting or screaming at someone's face can bring people back from the dead. Here's what's on the Word of Faith Fellowship website, and I quote, Many miracles of healing body and mind have been experienced during these times of crying out to God for His will will be done. More than once, through prayer, some have been restored to life after having been medically examined and declared dead. She cites Acts 2, verse 2 from the Amplified Translated Version of the Bible. A sound from heaven like a rushing violent tempest blast.

John Huddle: As with a lot of scriptures that Jane uses to interpret her practices, because you believe Jane, Jane is originating the interpretation of the term, and so you believe it.

Javier: I can only imagine Carol tied to her bed due to a prescription drug reaction and a group of people screaming at the top of their lungs day after day because they thought she was masturbating or possessed by the devil. After these horrific prayers, Carol was taken to the hospital and recovered. Carol died a few years later and was never able to testify her part of the story in court. Unfortunately, she wasn't the last person to experience this form of deliverance. So why am I reporting this story again? Well, the truth is I never really stopped. I've been working on this story for more than a year now. I started with questions from you, the listeners. "Hey, Javier, when are you gonna do another story about that cult?" I get that question all the time. Then my friends and neighbors kept asking about it.

Archival: So wait, are they the same church that was bringing kids up from Brazil and using them for manual labor without paying them? I feel like that's something that, you know, the authorities would look into and actually do something about.

Javier: I asked my friends what they were most curious about. Everyone is immediately fixated by the list of Word of Faith Fellowship rules. This list was compiled by former members who did basically a brain dump of all the unspoken rules that they have to follow. So I found this document online that shows, like, a list of rules that Word of Faith Fellowship members have to,

Archival: you know, go by. Um, I was just wondering, like, w- what, what do you think about these? Number one, you will be required to attend every service. You will be required to smile on command. Oh, this seems ridiculous. Don't play pool, don't play ping pong, don't play football, don't play Monopoly, don't play Hide and Go Seek. What is this? These are the rules? Number four, you'll be required to participate in group work projects. Enjoy it. Don't eat turkey on Thanksgiving, don't celebrate other holidays, don't celebrate Easter. They're Christian and they don't cele- celebrate Easter? Don't cook with alcohol, don't drink root beer, Cheerwine. Don't drink ginger ale. I mean, do they assume that root beer and Cheerwine are alcoholic because it's in the name? This is nuts. Don't whistle. Don't wear jeans, don't wear shorts, don't wear sleeveless dresses or tops, don't wear dresses above the knees, don't wear a bathing suit, okay, without having it covered with long shorts. Men, African American, don't shave your head bald. That's what it says. African American, don't shave your head bald. What line is that? What line? 1- 132. Don't celebrate wedding anniversaries. Don't- Oh my God. Don't celebrate your birthday or others in your family or groups of friends or coworkers. So sad. Oh, man. Women, don't get your heart set on a dress until you check with others to see if anyone else has that dress. You may need to return yours. Okay, 140, don't ask anyone but Jane about those who have not been seen lately in services. Don't speak to those who have left unless you ask Jane. Dude, this is, this is not, this is not, this is not Christianity at all. This is nuts. This is extreme, man.

Javier: Okay. Okay, these rules are a little strange, but who cares, right? I mean, it's not like these rules are hurting anyone. Having weird rules doesn't automatically make it a cult. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and in fact, in America, it's their constitutional right to practice whatever strange rules they want. But that right has its limits

Archival: Well, actually the biggest question for me is, like, how did a woman come into, like, so much power? Now, you know, like, progressive, like, women are in leadership and running businesses, but, like, in a small town like this, like, how is it, like, a woman running, running this cult?

Javier: All right, all right, I'll do a follow-up, but if I'm gonna do this story justice, I'm gonna need to travel three and a half hours west to Spindale, North Carolina, where the Word of Faith Fellowship is located, and I'm gonna need some backup. So Larry, I am thinking about going to Spindale, North Carolina, to, to just follow up on this story about the church. What do you think? Y- would you like... I mean, what do you, what do you think about you and I going together?

Archival: You... Now, you want me to go with you?

Javier: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's no big deal. It's just, like, a small town in western North Carolina. It's not... I mean, I know it sounds scary, but-

Archival: Well, I mean, I listened to Vi Capers and it was kind of scary. I mean, I just don't know why... I just wouldn't feel like... I mean, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, I just don't feel like I would be in a safe environment. I mean, I guess I'd almost wanna go there to protect you, but then I want someone there, there to protect me, and-

Javier: But I don't even think it's, uh, I don't even think it's about, like, protecting. I mean, this is, like, it's a small town. I mean, they got, like, uh, probably a Cracker Barrel and a couple gas stations- I know,

Archival: did you see Twin Peaks? I mean, I just don't, I don't... Small towns scare you much more than anything else.

Nolan Ether: And wait, isn't that the one where they beat up all the members?

Javier: I'm looking for somebody to join me. Would you be willing to go?

Archival: Yeah, I don't think my wife would let me do that.

Nolan Ether: Yeah, no, I, I don't think I'm gonna do that.

Archival: She would not be okay with that. I mean, I, I wouldn't mind, I guess, if I had some... I just wanna think about it, right? It's not like I'm... I feel like I'm maybe letting you down by saying no to you, but I just can't imagine going into a hostile environment like that. And you say it's not hostile, but hostile where they consider you a journalist, so I can't imagine, I can't imagine that you're not gonna go in, you know. And you must, you must feel something, 'cause why would you ask me, you know?

Javier: Well, I don't know. I mean, I just thought some companionship. Like, you know, it's gonna be a three and a half hour road trip. I thought maybe-

Archival: Oh. W- can I just think about it, though?

Javier: Okay. Okay. Nobody wants to come with me. That's cool. I'm a big boy. There's nothing to be afraid of, right? Right? Okay, I'm going to Spindale. I get in my car and head west. I drive several hours. It was eerily beautiful driving up the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. The sky was dark even though it was approaching lunchtime, and I thought to myself, "I must be getting close, right?" But I was wrong. I looked down at the GPS, and I still have another 45 minutes. Where is this place? Finally, I see a sign for Rutherford County, where the town of Spindale sits. It reads, quote, "Small town friendly." Yeah, we'll see about that. According to the 2010 census, Rutherford County has a population about 67,000 people, and where I'm heading, Spindale, North Carolina, has even less. Just 4,000 people who live here. Think about it this way, 4,000 people live in Spindale, and the Word of Faith Fellowship has 750 members. That's almost a quarter of the population of Spindale goes to the Word of Faith Fellowship Church. The church has become synonymous with Spindale, whether the citizens like it or not. I wanted to know what the people who live here think about the church. I need to find the hottest place in town, so I pull up at a local Walmart and randomly ask people what they thought of the church. What is it like to live in this town?

Archival: Um, maybe catch me on my way back out. I gotta think about

Javier: it. Okay, this is gonna be harder than I thought. I need to change my strategy. Are they really this big, you know, boogeyman, like, or are they just like a regular church?

Archival: I've heard that they're a cult, but I have just heard that and nothing else, honestly.

Javier: When you think about this county, what, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Like, is there, like when people remember this place.

Archival: It's just a small town.

Javier: And do you feel... Do you feel- Friendly

Archival: people.

Javier: Do you feel like, uh, do you feel like, like the Word of Faith Fellowship has kind of- Oh ... tarnished the community

Archival: a little bit? I absolutely do. Why? Too many people Word of Faith in this county.

Javier: Too many people?

Archival: Run this county.

Javier: I moved to the other end of the strip mall, and I approached a group of people hanging outside of a vape shop. They spotted my mic and quickly scattered. Oh, come on. I wanna... I'm not even gonna ask for your name. I'm not gonna ask for your name. But I'm quick, and I manage to corner two of them. Can you guys tell, tell us a little bit about Rutherford County? Just tell me, what, what is it like? Have you guys grown up here?

Archival: Yeah, I've lived here my whole life.

Javier: What is it like to live here?

Archival: Uh, there's good parts and bad parts.

Javier: Well, you know, one of the things that, like stands out to me, and like I'm wondering if it's even a big deal, but we, when we hear about this place, like we think of the Word of Faith Fellowship. What do you know about it?

Archival: Uh, I've not done personal research, but just being told by other people, I kind of believe it's a cult.

Javier: I mean, why do you think they have such a bad reputation around town?

Archival: Well, you never see children in the Word of Faith until they turn 18 because the, they don't want the children subdued to society's ways. until they turn 18, until they've got them convinced of the way of life of the Word of Faith and it, it's all a conspiracy.

Javier: No, seriously, don- don't be shy. I, I just, I really wanna know. I think, you know, like, people are really curious about it. Like, why- are they really, like, the boogeyman, or are they just, like, a normal

Archival: church? I don't think they're like a regular church. I've seen videos, I've heard people who's been on the inside. Like, they scream at kids. Like, they tie you to chairs. They think that they have to, like, scream demons out of you, like, because of nothing. Like, I don't know. I just don't-

Javier: Even after I got people to talk to me, like when I said Word of Faith, they were like, whoop. Yep. S- they would skip away. Why is that?

Archival: It's because the reputation they have. Like- They, they do not want them on their ass. Like, I know this guy who was gay, and he was in their church, and when he came out as gay, they thought that they had to scream being gay out of this dude. Like, you can't scream s- who somebody is out of them. You know what I'm saying? You can't. Like, it's not possible. Some people like the same sex. It's gonna happen. It always has, it always will. So-

Javier: So, I mean, well, anything else that maybe we should know about, like, from being outsiders, like looking in?

Archival: It's- Uh, I stay away from them. So

Javier: why do you stay away from them?

Archival: They just ain't no good. They ain't no good. Multiple stories about them following people. That's how I feel. Like, there's so many of them. They're in everything. They're doctors, lawyers, teachers. Like, there's so many of them.

Javier: Do you think, like, they're, like, literally all over town?

Archival: Like, y- Okay, look, go down here to the stop sign, take a left, and you'll see Waffle House and stuff on the right. Take a right into that parking lot, and then just go to the cafe at the mall, and I want you to look at the waitresses and tell me there's not something different about them. Just all you have to do is lay your eyes on those waitresses, and you will know.

Javier: I'll give you that. I mean, they're very conservative, right? And, like, they have, like, weird church practices. But, like, other than, like, being weird is not illegal, right? Like-

Archival: No, no, it's not illegal, but going to the courthouse and looking at the, the recent cases that they've had brought against them and the evidence against them is very, very convincing. Uh, they also have lawyers in the court system. They have people in the courthouse. So it's very hard to convict them of anything. That's why they haven't been brought down

Javier: So here I am in Spindale, North Carolina by myself Okay. All right. I'm gonna drive up to the Word of Faith Fellowship. I think it's right here to the right Okay. Okay, I'm pulling up and there's a pickup truck, and it's almost nighttime, and there's a pickup truck pointing directly at me with its lights on, and it looks like it's blocking the entrance. I'm gonna turn around. Okay, I'm turning around Next time on Pretend Radio, I'm going to attend a community forum hosted by former members. Current members and former members who've left the church will come face to face. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Nancy Burnette: And at the end of the day, I'm not going anywhere. They've taken my jobs away. My husband is a police officer. They went to his police department to try to take his job away. They have followed me. They have videoed me as they're doing right now. They should be sick of seeing me at this point, but evidently I'm still real interesting. Um, they have, they have tried their best to hurt me. It's not gonna happen

Javier: Here's a preview of what's to come this season Families will turn on each other

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Let me make it really clear. I am Jamie's mother, but what he says is lies.

Javier: Babies will be ripped away from their parents

Nancy Burnette: It, it's hurtful to see them and know that their lives could have been much different in a, in a home outside of there.

Javier: And the powerful, well, they'll be held accountable.

District Attorney: Um, as a district attorney, it's probably better for me not to comment. And why is that? Why

Javier: is that? Survivors are not holding back, and the church is not backing down.

John Huddle: These people are vindictive, lying, cheating, sorry ass motherfuckers.

Javier: Many in the media have tried to get in front of the accused cult leader, Jane Whaley. I

Archival: hear there was an invitation from Ms. Whaley directly.

Javier: For you with a meeting.

Archival: Okay. And have failed. We have asked you to leave.

Javier: But somehow I got in. How are you, sir? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm here to speak with Jane Whaley. She invited me to a service today. Okay. Yeah. This season, we're going deeper into the Word of Faith Fellowship than ever before. This story is on a collision course, and it's not gonna end well. Why would anybody want to harm him?

Nancy Burnette: Sometimes we hurt other people by hurting people they love.

Javier: Pretend Radio, season three, The Prophet. Thank you to all of you who have told your friends, family, and coworkers about this show. I mean, the feeling is overwhelming. And thank you to all the Patreon supporters. Your $1 donation has really helped me pay for some of the expenses on this show. I mean, I couldn't have done it without you. I especially wanna thank Amanda Tedrick, Ky Sardi, Kendra Hurst, Jennifer Taylor, Casey Lachele, Amy Helms, Michelle Sellers, and so many, many more who have contributed to the show. Right now, yes, right now, my Patreon supporters have access to the first three episodes. Plus, in a few days, I'm gonna be releasing a bonus episode with John Huddle, who you heard from in this episode, exclusively for my Patreon supporters. John Huddle made the gut-wrenching decision to leave the church and his family behind. On one hand, you're free, right? Right. But on the other hand, they're not. I mean...

John Huddle: Um, they've cut me off. They've not talked to me. My daughter now has a son. She's married and has a son, so I, I'm a grandfather, but I don't know anything but the name.

Javier: Hear his story and what his wife and kids, who are still in the church, have to say about him now. Honestly, there's more content than I even know what to do with this season. So if you're ever thinking about becoming a Patreon supporter, now is the time. There's so much good stuff that just won't make it into these nine episodes. So go to pretendradio.org and hit the donate button, and it's gonna be early access to episodes, plus a bunch of bonus stuff that just won't be heard on this feed. Also, I'm starting a video blog for each episode. I mean, there's a lot of behind-the-scene things that I would like to share with you that just didn't make it on the show. So if you'd like to learn more, just search for Pretend Radio on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, and like the page. You won't be disappointed, except for the face for radio part. And if you live near Raleigh, North Carolina, my buddy Jason Gillikin, producer of the Weddings for Real podcast, and I will be leading a branded podcast seminar on October 22nd. We're gonna be teaching the in and outs of starting a podcast for businesses. If you're interested, visit podcastseminar.com. Oh, one more thing. My buddy Shay with the All Crime No Cattle podcast is going to leave us with a few more strange rules from the Word of Faith Fellowship

Archival: You will be required to smile on command. This is called keeping your happy face. Rule forty-one: Don't close your eyes when singing. You could give over to a religious devil. Rule seventy-three: Don't go swimming with boys and girls together. Rule seventy-six: Men, don't allow facial hair to grow. No beards of any type. No pork chop sideburns.

Javier: All right, Shay, that's enough. Check out the promo for All Crime No Cattle, a Texas-sized true crime podcast. All right, see you guys next week

Archival: Hi, true crime fans. I'm Erin. And I'm Shay. We host All Crime No Cattle, a conversational podcast which focuses on true crime stories from the Lone Star State. We strive to bring you a balanced and well-researched story about Texas cases big and small. We do the research so you don't have to. We also end every episode with a good news story, just to remind everyone that real life isn't quite as depressing as true crime can make it out to be. New episodes drop every Thursday, and you can find us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. All Crime No Cattle, because crime is bigger in Texas, y'all