S307: The Prophet - Meet Jane Whaley Part 2

Javier: I'm holding hands with Jane Whaley. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm about to experience what few reporters ever have, a Word of Faith Fellowship service. Honestly, I don't even know what to expect. I mean, everything's happening so fast. Just yesterday I was camping outside of my front yard, and this morning I'm holding hands with Jane Whaley

Jane Whaley: You know,

Nolan Ether: I have, but it's been a

Jane Whaley: while. A while?

Javier: Yeah,

Jane Whaley: it's been a while. The one about TV and he watched shows.

Nolan Ether: Yeah, I, I've seen him on TV.

Javier: Okay. The music gets louder and louder as we approach the sanctuary.

Jane Whaley: I was raised Baptist. My husband was raised Methodist. We've been Presbyterian. So we did a little- Worship God and praise Jesus. Yes. Let the love of God flow

Javier: From what I can tell, it looks like a packed house. I mean, people are spilling out of the main sanctuary and into the hallway This must be what a football team feels like right before they run out of the tunnel. I asked Jane if I can record, and she said no. She said she would like to get to know me first, and that we would talk privately after the service. I said fair enough, and I turned off my recorder. From this moment on, I only recorded the music and only the music. After all, I promised Jane no tricks I'm Xavier Leva, and this is Pretend Radio, season three: The Prophet Unfortunately, I tried to convince Jane to do a recorded interview, and she refused. After service, we sat down in her office and spoke for an hour and a half. It was amazing. We'll get to all the details soon, but first, church is over, and I gotta get the heck out of here. I text my friend Nolan and tell him I'm ready to be picked up. Poor guy, he's been wandering around this small town for hours waiting for my text. I'm waiting for Nolan under the same driveway where he dropped me off. I can only imagine what he's thinking as he's pulling in. Jane Whaley is holding her dog, Louie, and she has her other arm wrapped around me, and everyone's smiling. I shake the lawyers' hands and thank them, then Jane reaches inside the car and gives Nolan a big hug. What a weird day. Nolan really, really, really wanted to know what happened, and I said, "We need to record my thoughts before my memory starts slipping away." I said, "Let's go find a restaurant and talk." So we pull into a sports bar in Charlotte and ask them if they could turn down the music. Our waitress, Taylor, was amused by our little project. So what are y'all doing? Uh, we just came back from, um, going to the Word of Faith Fellowship Church. Have you ever heard of these guys? I

Archival: have not.

Javier: Yeah. Well, you should check them out. They're-

Archival: Should I check them out? They're

Javier: very in- they're very interesting.

Archival: The way you're laughing, it doesn't

Javier: think I should check them out. So what's good here to eat?

Nolan Ether: All right, dude, you're killing me. So I dropped you off. What happened?

Javier: Okay. So the moment you dropped me off, I, I remember, like, releasing this, this big sigh and, like, and then I caught myself thinking, "Oh my God, no. Like, they're gonna know I'm, like, really nervous." Did you hear that when I... I just, like, went So I got surrounded by the attorneys, number one. I, it, it was Josh, Josh Farmer who, like, reached into the car and kind of, like, introduced himself, and I, I-

Nolan Ether: Yeah, he shook my hand right out of the gate-

Javier: Yeah, that guy- ... through the

Nolan Ether: window

Javier: Right. That guy's name is Josh Farmer, who by the way, I reached out to him back in season one, and he never returned my call. Mm. I walk in through the door, and I immediately am greeted by Sam. Sam is Gene Whaley's husband. He's the one that, you know, he was the original pastor, right? It was such a warm embrace that I felt all of a sudden. So all that tension that we felt, like, before I got out of the car, it melted away instantly.

Nolan Ether: It felt genuine? Like, I mean, you felt at ease?

Javier: It, it really did. It disarmed me, and even though that's what I was expecting, right? Like, I was ex- look, two things could have happened today. We all know, we talked about this earlier, that the last people that were invited, quote-unquote, to the church got arrested, okay?

Nolan Ether: Literally, like, last week.

Javier: But dude, I didn't know what's gonna happen, okay? That's all I know is that people don't typically get invited to this church, and the last people that did got arrested.

Nolan Ether: So just spend a few minutes, kind of paint a picture visually of, you know, what these folks kind of looked like. 'Cause I g- I got a quick, uh, impression of it just as I drove up. I saw a couple of, you know, people kind of standing by the door and folks coming out of the hallways. I could kind of see down the hallway. Just kind of paint the picture visually of what these folks kind of look like, their, their dress and whatnot.

Javier: Yeah. You know, unfortunately for you, they made us go through the side entrance, right? So, like, when we pulled up to the church, we got greeted by the security, and they, they quickly made us turn right, where, like, when we were facing the building, they made us turn right when obviously the entrance was left. So you didn't get the benefit of seeing the church members, but a- they are unmistakable. So if you saw them right here- we're, we're at a restaurant, right? Like, if, if... These look like normal people, right? N- n- normal, quote-unquote, people. I mean, you got people wearing shorts and women wearing sleeveless, uh, shirts because you know what? It's summer and it's hot. If a Word of Faith member were to walk into this restaurant right now, you would know, uh, because they wear long sleeves, the women. They're very conservative. A, a lot of the outfits appear to be homemade, um, but they're very dated looking, you know what I mean? Like, it almost seems like, like, uh, an '80s, m- maybe early seven- uh, late '70s type of outfit, you know what I mean? Just very shiny material. Just seems very, like, inexpensive material, and their hair is, uh, very big. You can tell they wear a lot of hairspray, and then curl, they curl their hair. I mean, it's- it would be unmistakable And honestly, they wouldn't walk into this bar, right? Because this bar has music and alcohol. So they wouldn't walk in here. But I guarantee you that if you saw them across the street, you would instantly know that this person is probably a Word of Faith member.

Nolan Ether: I described to Nolan the scene in Jane's office when I met her and her family.

Javier: Immediately as I walk in, I'm greeted by all these people and I'm now in Jane's office and Jane walks out from the back and there's a tear flowing down her eye like she was crying and she wasn't she didn't look upset. But then all of a sudden Jane's crying. So I'm thinking, are things going to change now? You know, I mean, like, remember, this is the boogeyman that I built up in my head for this whole year. You know, I don't know who she is really other than what I've heard from secret recordings and and what I've heard in the news. But she greeted me. She gave me a big hug, a really friendly hug. And we we hit it off instantly.

Nolan Ether: No mention of the tear.

Javier: I didn't want to address it, but. I

Nolan Ether: mean, she didn't say, oh, excuse me, I just, nothing.

Javier: No, no. It was like maybe, you know, maybe sometimes your eyes get watery. Like sometimes that happens. But it was a clear tear. And I don't know if she was upset or she did mention that she was coming out of like a like a cold or something. So I think that she wasn't feeling well. And she was shorter than I imagined her to be. And, you know, she was she was she was an older lady. Like you could tell this is like I have my grandparents are still alive. And she very much reminded me of my grandparents because they're about the same age, you know, like in the 70s. And, you know, her hands were had arthritis. You could tell, you know, you know, when older people you could see their veins and like you could just tell that she's an older lady. And and it probably like I just imagined my grandparents and the amount of energy that it takes to to just live day to day life. I mean, life gets harder as you get older. So what I saw her do today was pretty incredible. Like she has stamina. Our food's here.

Archival: I'm so

Javier: sorry to interrupt. No, it's okay. That looks awesome It's all coming back to me 'cause this is why we're recording now at a restaurant. I mean, obviously there's more ideal places. Yeah. But I need to get it, this out of my head, right? Yeah. Like all these details. Jane and I are walking down this hallway, almost like the tunnel at a stadium, and we're hearing the roar just get louder and louder as we get closer. And all of a sudden we walk through the doors, and boom, there is this large room. You know, I've seen pictures of it, and you can see pictures, you can see pictures on my website about it, but you only usually see the stage, right? There must've been 400 people there. 400 or 500 people easily. Okay? There were people that couldn't even fit in the main auditorium, so they were spilling off into that same hallway that we were walking through. And so we cut through this crowd, and I mean, it was just like You know, like this booming, booming, jubilant, jubilant singing. There, there must've been 20 to 30 people on stage, adults, right, of all nationalities singing at the top of their lungs with microphones. I don't know why they had microphones, because they were so loud. They did not need the microphones. And there are old ladies wearing high heels jumping up and down. I mean, the energy in this room was electric. I mean, electric. It was, it was not like anything I've ever experienced before, and it was louder than anything I have ever experienced before. And we walk in, and, and Jane, of course, she's the rock star, right? And so everybody's approaching her and giving her kisses and hugs, and the little kids, and she grabs the little kids and hugs them and, and there's so many kids. Like, the kids are just playing in the front of the stage. Not playing, but, like, they're just hanging out, and, uh, Jane greets them. And, you know, Jane's showing me around. Uh, I'm, I'm, like, meeting people, meeting this guy, meeting that guy. I met a, I met a Cuban guy. Like, she... There was a Cuban guy that goes to her church, and he, he was super nice. Everyone was so nice. I mean, they just looked like they were so glad to see me. And, uh, so, um, I, I was escorted basically by, you know, Josh, uh, Farmer, who was, who's the attorney, and, um, he, he led me to the second row where we're right behind Jane and Sam. So I'm... Like, basically right in front of me is Sam, her husband, and Jane Whaley. So I'm looking at the- behind their... And then, and then beyond them is the stage. And, um, I look around, and I mean, everyone was singing from the top of their lungs, like little kids, grown men who look like somebody's uncle that wouldn't sing, but they were singing. And the women were singing. Everyone was singing, and they looked happy. They looked really genuinely happy. I was looking around, and, like, the little kids were singing, and it was just... I couldn't help but smile. And remember, I'm only there a- observing the place. I, I wasn't... I'm not gonna say amen a- when they say amen. I'm not gonna clap when they sing a song. I'm not gonna jump up and down. But I was in the moment. Everything, all my preconceived notions about this place started to unravel. I really started to, to feel like this is not this cult that everybody's talking about, that this is a church. And then all of a sudden, uh, all these preconceived notions that I've had, everything I've read in the AP about this place, everything that, uh, former members have told me, for a moment there, it seemed invalid, right? Because- Wow. Yeah. Because I'm looking around and I'm looking at all these people And there was, I am not kidding, th- there was a complete brass section with a French horn, trumpets. I mean, there must've been at least in the brass section five or six, uh, people. There was flutes and there was all sorts of instruments. In fact, I would look around the room and, and people were wearing earplugs, like the kind that you would wear, like, you know, if somebody were snoring in the same room or if you were went swimming because they expected it, like, you know, like for it to be ear piercing. And now you might be wondering, 'cause we spent a lot of time, like, in, like, last, you know, last time I, I covered this story, we talked about the blasting prayers, and th- there was no blasting prayers. Blasting prayers are, are typically reserved for private purposes only. Like, so they would never do this in front of, like, a, a, an outsider like me. Everything that they were singing were, were Bible songs that were, were like just really happy, happy songs. It was like maybe like three or four songs. And then they invited all the small children on the stage. Now this was a really striking moment. This was a very striking moment to see all the children there all at the same time. And what, what hit me, like, right off the bat is how multicultural this church is. I mean, th- we are in the middle... Where were we? I mean, you, you were driving around. Where were we today?

Nolan Ether: It was pretty rural.

Javier: And how, how does rural America typically look?

Nolan Ether: Yeah, I mean, when I pulled around, I expected it to be, you know, largely, you know, white, and then seeing the way they were dressed, sort of, you know, just all upper middle class white. And then as I even pulled around the church and went to the back, I saw people of sort of, you know, every kind of nationality. It was striking to me as well. I, it took me aback.

Javier: Yeah, well, every, all those children, there were Asian children, there were Hispanic children, there were white children, African American children. There was a lot of biracial children there. You couldn't cast a more diverse k- uh, like, crowd, right, of children. And then they had this, this, they, the children went off stage. What

Nolan Ether: did they do when they were on stage, and, like, how did they- They were singing ... how did they, did they come upstage? Did they, were they happy when they, I mean, how- Yeah, they- What was that, what did that look like when they came up?

Javier: They were... Okay, so I was-

Nolan Ether: They, like, ran to the stage. They, you know what I mean, like-

Javier: It was very orderly. Yeah. You could tell that they do this a lot. So they, they walked up to the stage, and they sang their song, and they mostly looked happy. And I was examining these kids, right? So one kid, um, obviously had some sort of accident. Like he, he had w- what I know now is road rash. He fell off his bike, that's what they're telling me. Um, and I asked Josh Palmer about it, uh, the lawyer who was sitting next to me, and he's like, "Yeah, he, he fell off his bike." And I think, you know, I think it's important that, that we note that it, it definitely looked like a little kid accident. Like, my kid had a black eye once. Like, I- in no way did I ever think that, that there was, like, foul play, right? Like, like, these kids were all pretty good-looking kids, right? Um, they were dressed, like, with these, like, little Donald Duck sailor-type suits. You know, like th- these little, like, linen, like, outfits. They're cute kids, right? I, I did notice that some of the kids had, um, he- heavy eyelids, which I think is kinda weird for a kid. Because like, you know, you and I probably don't get much sleep, but a kid should get a lot of sleep. So I did notice, like, one or two kids like that, but for the most part, these kids looked like really well-adjusted, happy kids. So, like, at first glance, not knowing the context that we know, uh, I did not suspect anything by, by visibly seeing these kids on stage, right? So when the kids were up there singing, there was a little African American boy. Like, um, he was probably four years old and he's standing there, cute as can be. Um, well, that little boy had brain cancer. So Jane turns around and, and whispers in my ear, and she goes, "You see that boy right there? He had, he had some sort of brain cancer, and he was at a hospital. And all the little boys that had brain cancer in his unit, they all died except for him." Because God spoke to Jane, and God told Jane that he was gonna get saved, and they must have had some sort of prayer session, like a blasting session, and, and they ensured that he was gonna survive. So all those kids died, but he was saved. That's what she told me. Um, it, it was... You know what? I don't know what you say to that. After these kids exit the stage, a group, um, a large group, maybe 40 adults, walk up to the stage, and they're holding signs. And they're holding signs of the country where they've come from. And it was a big international, uh, presence there. And I, I wrote down, this is when I started wr- writing down the quote, um, writing down my notes because I, I, there's no way I could remember all these countries. But these are the countries that I saw represented: Cuba, Cambodia, Mexico, Ghana, Ireland, Sweden, Scotland, Switzerland, Denmark, Greece, Vietnam. And so they went around each country, and they sang whatever song they were singing in the language of their country. It was like this huge multicultural thing, and, and it was so unexpected. And, you know, I asked John- They

Nolan Ether: said they do this every week?

Javier: That's what they say. And everyone was super into it, man.

Nolan Ether: It's like a Olympics opening ceremony or something.

Javier: It looked like the Olympics opening ceremony So I asked Josh Farmer, who's the attorney that represents the church, who was, I guess, the unfortunate fellow that had to, like, watch everything I did. Because he was watching, he was looking over my notes. He was like, made sure that every time I texted, he had to make sure that I was okay. He was, he was on me, man, like white on rice. But, uh, but we also had some friendly exchanges. He was very nice. And I asked him, I said, "I made this observation, like, wow, this is very multicultural. I just wasn't expecting that." And he's like, "Yeah, you know, this is, this is a reason why we get so much heat. Because we are in a rural, white American town where the Southern Baptists, they don't like the fact that we have interracial kids. They don't like the fact that our ministers and our leaders are female." And he's like, "If we were in any other town, if we were in Charlotte or if we were in Oklahoma City or in Tulsa, we wouldn't... We would just be a normal church." But the community has turned on them, according to Josh Farmer, because of their diversity and their empowerment of women.

Nolan Ether: That's an interesting take.

Javier: You weren't expecting that, were you?

Nolan Ether: Is that the only time that you heard that being the take, or, or did that get reinforced at all? That that's like the narrative behind why they're catching flack or, or is that just once that you heard that? 'Cause I'm, I, I don't think... Have you heard that before?

Javier: That was the first time that I really heard that argument before, and it was reinforced later on in the day. Okay, so, so this, this is a funny moment, okay? The choir, I guess, for lack of a better term, is singing in full volume. I mean, it's super loud. Jane's right in front of me, and Jane would serve as this, like, commentator throughout the whole thing. She would, like, turn around and, and, like, come whisper in my ear. And she would be like, "You see that guy over there? You see that guy who's singing?" And I said, "Yeah." And she goes, "He used to be Paul McCartney's drummer." And I go, "Oh, cool." 'Cause, you know, for me, I thought that was cool. But I realized that for her, listening to music is not cool. And she goes, "Yeah. Well- He came here seeking, uh, deliverance and he no longer plays drums. He was in all that drugs and alcohol and stuff, and now he's been saved. And so I realized that what I thought was cool, that he was a drummer with Paul McCartney, is, is not a cool thing, and he's, he's now been saved. The

Nolan Ether: cool thing is not that he's a drummer, it's that, that she saved the drummer of Paul,

Javier: yeah. Yes, she saved the drummer. And then in the process, I realized that she doesn't like drums. Like, apparently, like, drums are a bad thing, and I, I will do research to find out why drums were bad. But I looked back at that huge band and there was no drummer. The only percussion were, like, the tambourines, and I don't even know how those got by. Then all the men came up, all the men, and that was like... So then it turned into, like, Gaston's tavern from Beauty and the Beast, man. Like, these, like, these booming voices singing these, like, powerful church songs, and I, and it was just, like, impressive, right? And then the older men leave, and that, that's when, um, the energy in the room starts dying down a little bit. After the men exit the stage, Sam, Sam Whaley, Jane's husband, who's sitting right in front of me, he gets up and he approaches the podium, and he gives a sermon. And he, he's so, um, disarming. He's so charming and funny. So Sam, Sam Whaley, before he left the podium, he introduced new families that were there. Like, some people had brought their parents to the church, visiting. And then he, um, he exits the stage, and up comes Jane Whaley to the podium, and she looks at me and she says, "And we have a special guest today, and his name is Javier Leiva, and he has a radio show, and he's here to observe," right? And I get up and I wave at the crowd and I say, "Thank you for having me." And everybody was super happy that I was there. And, um, yeah. And she said she listened to some of my episodes and that she's always wanted to reach out to me, but didn't know how. Um, and she said that God spoke to her, and when I emailed her- She knew that she needed to talk to me, and that's why she responded. So Jane has listened to my earlier episodes, um, and that did not stop her from reaching out. You know, I asked her, you know, "Have you ever been interviewed before?" And she said, "No, never." She said Inside Edition came in the '90s and they wanted to do the story, but instead we didn't want to talk to them, so they did this exposé and, and smeared them. And since then she hasn't talked to a reporter. And so the fact that, that I was invited to the church was a pretty big moment. In fact, I, I told, you know, uh, another reporter in town that I got invited to the church and, like, she was shocked because this is not the way it works. Like, people don't go visit Jane Whaley, especially people from the media. interesting for me because she's such a dynamic character that I thought that that was gonna s- translate to being on stage. But actually, she seemed a little nervous, which really caught me off guard, and she seemed a little... I don't know if it was unprepared, but she just kept saying, you know, "All right, go to the, you know, go to 1 Peter chapter two, verse nine," and then, and then you would hear the, the paper shuffling, you know, like the whole... Everybody was following along, and then, uh, "Revelations chapter one, verse five, and 1 Peter chapter one." All this happened within, like, it seemed like a minute. She was just jumping around the Bible and, like, it wasn't like th- this charismatic, um, uh, like, speech that I would imagine somebody like her would deliver. It was very, like, "All right, we're gonna read, uh, hand-selected Bible verses," and, like, not give context. Uh, if, if, if any of the context was, like, um, you know, we gotta, we gotta stick together. You know, um, if we don't stick together, w- uh, you know, we fall into temptation like Adam and Eve, you know, fell to temptation, but God has a plan and, uh, we... There is a way out, and it's to follow the word of God, and that she said she's a nobody She said she's a nobody, to not have pride, that there's only one way, and that's the way of God. And honestly, nothing she said really was alarming because, I mean, she was reading out of the Bible, and I've been to other churches, and I've been to very conservative churches, and I mean, that's what the Bible says. And, um, I didn't feel like she was distorting the Bible in any way, you know? But I, I did find it weird at h- how cold it was and how much back and forth there was. And during this time, I, I did look at the crowd, and I was trying to gauge whether people were following along, and everybody was e- young kids, like, in their teens, and, like, older men, everybody was tracking with her. As she would flip back and forth, everybody was tracking with her. It's not what you would expect. Yeah,

Archival: no, I don't know what I

Nolan Ether: would expect. So, so far, we've basically got a bunch of songs. Yeah. Big rock star entrance, a bunch of songs. Sam, was he preaching- Yeah ... or was he sorta just kinda telling jokes and working the crowd, kind of like- I

Javier: mean, no, he, he, he did a prayer.

Nolan Ether: Okay, he- Yeah. Um, and then you've got Jane, who kind of flipped through some Bible verses. W- did you... When did all the stuff that we hear about, the jumping and the crazy, you know, the yelling and all that, I mean, how... Did we get into that at any point or? It

Javier: never happened. It never happened. Nothing from the ceremony s- like, was unusual. Like, it was very unremarkable. Other than the, the sheer volume of the music, there was nothing out of the ordinary. I want, I want to, like... I, I, I came prepared thinking that there's gonna be blasting and, like, people falling to the ground, and, like, slapping

Nolan Ether: foreheads. No speaking in tongues.

Javier: No speaking in tongues.

Nolan Ether: No jumping around.

Javier: I mean, there was jumping around. Like, they were jumping to the music. To

Nolan Ether: the music, but other than the music, like, there was no, like, prayer session. There was no people falling down. Like you were just saying, like, there's no people coming up to the stage and being saved in- Nope ... droves and-

Javier: None of that. None of that. I mean, so-

Nolan Ether: You were in there for two and a half hours in the service. Yeah. How far in are you in when you're talking about Jane? Th-

Javier: this is towards the end. It, it felt more like a concert than, than a church service. The actual s- church service came afterwards, which it was kind of a letdown in a way because there was so much energy at the beginning, and I, I was getting into it. Um, and then, uh, when Jane came, it, it kind of stopped. There was a point when she was done flipping around the Bible that she lit up the room. Like, it, like, the, the, she kind of let loose, and people started smiling and laughing. It was when she was telling a story about her family. So when she talked about her family vacation that they just came from, they just took a beach vacation, and she talked about her grand- or, like, some baby, and then they talked about the dog. You know, Louie was there, and Louie's a character, and, you know, she really, like, started, uh, becoming more human, right? And, and people, the crowd really responded to that. It was very warm. So Jane Whaley does her thing, and, uh, and then she, she says, "All right. Well, it's, it's about 12 o'clock now," and, uh, service started at 9:30, and it was time to wrap it up, and that was it. It was over. It was over After the service was over, Jane grabbed my hand and told me that she wanted me to meet some people.

Nolan Ether: And what happened after that? You, how did you get escorted? I mean, you texted me.

Javier: Yeah. So after that, as soon as it was over, Jane returns to her, to where she was sitting right by me, and everyone who was coming out off the stage, uh, greeted her and kissed her and Sam and told Grandma, "I love you, Grandma," because they call her Grandma, and she... They call Sam Grandpa. And then they gave her kisses, and it was a very warm exchange. And then she introduced me to more people, and I... And, and then immediately, immediately, it's almost like she wanted to confront, she wanted to confront all the accusations. Without me, I never even had to bring it up. Remember, my game plan was to play nice, earn her trust. I wasn't gonna bring up any controversial things. And she goes, "I want you to meet Matthew Fenner's brother," who Matthew, who you will learn later on in the season, is the, is the, the boy, at the time he was, like, a, a boy who got, you know, says that he got beaten by Brooke, Jane's adopted daughter, and, and four other ministers. And they're going to trial. She brought over Ma- Matthew's brother, and she goes, "Tell him, tell him that it was all a lie, that, that Matthew was lying." And, and he goes, "Yep, it was all a lie. I was there. Matthew was lying." And then, I mean, this all happened... I want you to understand, I want the listeners to understand that this all took place within maybe five minutes. This is like, as people are exiting the church, they're approaching us, and it's almost like they lined them up just for me.

Nolan Ether: Then Jane introduces me to Jamie's brother. Jamie, who you heard from earlier in the season, is the man who confronted his mother at the forum.

Javier: They brought over Jamie's brother. And really, you know, good-looking dude. Like, like, he comes up to me. He goes, "Yep, my brother is lying. Everything he says is a lie." You know, I haven't been allowed to record anything u- to this point. Like, when they said, "Stop recording," I stopped recording. All right? I hono- I honored that. Uh, I don't think I had to, but, but I chose to respect that because I wanted to earn their trust. But I'm, like, thinking, "Is this it?" Like, "Are they gonna kick me out at this point? You know, am I gonna get to talk to Jane?" And I said, um... And I didn't even ac- actually have to ask. They're like, "Come with me. We wanna sit down and talk to you." So Jane grabbed me by the hand, and we walked together, and w- hand-in-hand, and we walked back to her office, back down that long hallway that we came in through.

Archival: And

Javier: The waitress, Taylor, comes back to our table and tells us, "Hmm, it's time to go." It

Archival: got on fire.

Javier: So we have to leave the restaurant. Don't worry. Um, let's ... You wanna pick it up back in the

Nolan Ether: car? All

Javier: right.

Nolan Ether: Yeah. Yeah.

Javier: All right. It's fine. Nolan starts the recorder back up.

Nolan Ether: All right, we're back on it.

Javier: Okay, so this, I apologize if we end up using this audio, but it's just that I need to get this out of my head, you know what I mean? Like, we have to talk about it now. That's why we recorded at a restaurant, and that's why we're recording in the car. We're in- As I was talking to Nolan, I get a call from Shana Muse.

Nolan Ether: That's, this might be

Javier: why. You're about to see. Oh, Shana Muse. Can I take this real quick? Yeah, but you might want to put it on speaker. Shana is a woman who lost her children to the church in a custody battle. Hey, Shana. How's it going?

Archival: Right lane to take exit- Oh, right. Sorry, I didn't recognize your number

Nolan Ether: earlier. No, I- That's B ... it's okay. And you know what? I, and I wanna apologize, like, a million times for, um-

Javier: You see, I kind of stood Shana up. We were supposed to meet with her today, but then when Jane Whaley invited me to the church, I tried calling Shana to tell her plans had changed, but couldn't get ahold of her. So we missed our meeting. ... not being super immediate and saying- Because, um, I, I was invited at the very last minute yesterday to, uh, to one of the, the services at Word of Faith. Like, Jane invited me. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I was very surprised. Um-

Archival: So you went this morning?

Javier: Yeah. I w- I went this morning. Sorry if you hear my- Let

Archival: me tell you what you saw.

Javier: You wanna tell me what I saw? Tell me what I saw.

Archival: I can tell you.

Javier: All right. What did I

Archival: see? I can tell you. Okay. So there are a bunch of smiling faces. Now, I haven't been there since 2002, but they always did this one with visitors. Smiling, happy people, and so then probably they may have had some announcements, and then the kids all came out, little kids, and sang.

Javier: Yes.

Archival: Am I, am on the right track?

Javier: You are on the right track.

Archival: And then came some li- maybe like the middle-schoolers, and then they had some praise and worship, and then maybe Jane read from the Bible a little bit-

Javier: Yeah

Archival: and probably mentioned that you were there-

Javier: Yes ...

Archival: and welcomed you.

Javier: This is kind of creepy, actually. And then,

Archival: and then it was over, right?

Javier: And then it was over. Very unremarkable.

Archival: Ask any ex-member what happened today when you went to the church, 'cause that's what we did when visitors came. We put on a facade, but if you weren't there, Javier, somebody would've got bashed. Might have been for hours. They may have been told how wicked they were. You know, having them stand up in front of the crowd, you know? They would never do that with you because, you know- Yeah ... 'cause you weren't ready. They don't wanna cast their pearls before your, the swine, you know?

Word of Faith Fellowship Choir: Right. Right. Right.

Javier: Sorry if that was hard to understand, but that's so weird. Shana described exactly what I experienced play by play. W- what you just described is exactly what I just described to Nolan 'cause I know we've been together all day, but I actually haven't had a chance to really, like, walk him through moment by moment. But what i- it is so weird that you called right now and you described exactly... Did I not, did she not describe everything I just told you? In

Nolan Ether: sequence

Archival: A leopard don't change her spots and in this case, a witch don't ch- change her spots, does she? She's gonna put one of their smiling faces forward for you to see, and then you're gonna be, like, puzzled, like, "What are these ex-members talking about?" But wh- But if you were to go and be a member, it would be a total different story.

Javier: Let me, let me challenge you on that, right? Because Jane Whaley and I started, uh, interacting through email late, late Friday night. It was, uh, 2:00 in the morning when she sent me an email. I didn't respond till, like- Yeah Saturday. So all this happened basically within a 24-hour period. You're telling me that within that 24-hour period, that they were able to orchestrate this show for me? I mean, like, everyone looked like they were really into it, you know? Like, genuinely into it. They've been orchestrating

Archival: it for tw- over 20 years. I mean, come on. They know- Yeah ... what to do when visitors are there. Put on your smile, happy. The ones that can't are in some closet somewhere probably, you know, off the campus now. They used to put them in the lower building. But you didn't see every member today, I can promise you that. There's, there's people on church list, disciplined children, probably either up in the school building, you know, or in people's homes now because of all the investigations. You did not see every person today, e- every child, you know?

Javier: Do they send out an announcement that I'm coming? How do they communicate this? I- Because, I mean, if everyone was in on, on the act, like, how many people? Like, there might have been, like, 500, 400 people in that auditorium. I mean, they were all in on it? I mean, they looked really, really

Archival: into it. Listen, they know every face of every member, you know, every first and last name of every member. Now, there were times I didn't know there was a guest. Maybe they were up front and I was just sitting to the back. But, uh, you know, by the time Jane announced it, I already knew, "Oh, okay, that was why we, nobody got screamed at or nobody got, you know, put down in front of the whole congregation, or that's why we didn't pray today and do all that screaming, blasting. Oh, I, now I know, because there was a guest up front." You know? Um, sooner or later she's gonna let know. Did she, did she say anything about you being there, "We have a guest"?

Javier: Oh, yeah. Just, just the way you described it. I mean, in the order that you described it.

Archival: Yeah. But most of the time, if you came in the back, all the people in the back would see you and know, "That's right, smile. Happy!" You know? "We're all, you know, happy people." Um, whereas if there were no guests, for me it was fear every time I walked into that church. Am I the one that's gonna get called out? Am I gonna be the one that's told to get the heck out of the back of the church?

Javier: I don't know how to bring this next part up. It involves Shana, and I don't wanna upset her. So something interesting happened and I wanted to talk to you about it. I met your son. He, he was, uh, paraded in front of me. Yeah. Jane introduced me to Shana's son, named Justin. You see, Shana has four kids, and when she left the church, only three of those children eventually left with her. Justin was the only one who stayed behind. Justin was, you know, approached me, and Jane basically asked him, you know, um, if everything you have said and everything that the Coopers have said about him are true, and, and he unequivocally up and down swore that you were lying, and that he referred to you as your biological mother, and, uh, his, you know, uh, uh, like, you know, kind of alluding to the fact that his real parents are in the church. And, uh, it, it hurt me in proxy to you because I, I, I was trying to put myself in your shoes at that moment. You know, like, that was a real moving moment for me, you know? And I honestly didn't even know what to ask him. Like, I was really caught off guard, you know? Does that surprise you in any way or...?

Archival: Why would they put Justin in front of you? Why would they make sure Justin... They didn't know me and you even knew each other, that we were talking or...

Javier: You know, it, it's almost like they paraded in front of me everyone who has attacked the church. She assured me that she still hopes that Justin will leave someday. I mean, she never thought her other three kids would leave and, and they did.

Archival: Oh, I'm not giving up all hope on him, you know? I mean, they got Justin married off right away. They got him a truck, and apparently Justin's really into the clothes and stuff like that, so they're really feeding what he likes, you know? And poor baby, I just feel bad for him, you know? I feel so sad about his childhood, you know, and it's my fault, you know? Um, and we even ended up at that, that dump. I call it a dump, but, um, you know, it's just, um... He'll get his head together, you know? I'm not giving up hope on him. All right. Well, maybe we'll talk again, Javier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will. Bye. For sure. Thank you so much. All right. Have a good night. You too. Bye.

Javier: After getting off the phone with Shanna, Nolan still had questions.

Nolan Ether: So I just gotta ask you, 'cause we just got off the phone with Shanna And I think what was most striking was probably the very beginning, right? She started right out of the gate by- Yeah ... basically recapping exactly what you just finished telling me, literally- I

Javier: mean,

Nolan Ether: we

Javier: were- ... in the last 10- We we got kicked out of the restaurant, right? Yeah. And I'm still, like, trying to explain to you in detail, just to get it out of my head, you know, what, what went on today. And suddenly we're driving and I get a call from Shana and she recounted moment, play-by-play, exactly what I experienced. And that was pretty telling to me because, I mean, it was exactly in the order that I experienced everything.

Nolan Ether: So I gotta ask you, wh- you know, your impression, when you were retelling it to me, you're hard to read and I didn't get a chance to kinda dig in deeper 'cause we weren't finished kinda with the telling. But hearing her recount that in that type of detail, what is your feeling about your whole experience today at Port of Faith?

Javier: I gotta tell you, I mean, for, while I was there, I was thinking, "What's the big deal?" You know what I mean? What's... Now that I'm seeing it with my own eyes,

Nolan Ether: like- E- even, even knowing, I mean, we, going down there we were saying it was gonna be a dog and pony show. But they were able to, to, to have that level of... I mean, you looked genuine. When you were expressing to me that it was warm and it felt genuine, you s- it seemed like you really felt that way.

Javier: I really did. Yeah. I really, I really felt that way because in my mind I'm thinking, "We've been in contact for less than 24 hours, okay? How in the world was she able to get, like, 15 band members with brass and, and, like, how was she able to get everyone to look like they were genuinely having a great time?" She had 24 hours to prepare for this, right? She contacted me, you know, Saturday, like, you know, in the middle of the night, and today is Sunday. You know? Like, she had less than 24 hours to prepare for this. In my head I'm thinking, "Did she really, like, go to everyone and, like, say, 'Hey, look happy.'" I mean, I've directed actors before in my past when I directed commercials. It is very hard to make people look genuinely happy.

Nolan Ether: Once.

Javier: Like, as a photographer, you can't say, "Hey, smile," and get

Nolan Ether: a- If they've been doing it for 20 years.

Javier: Yeah, because Shana has not been in this church for 16 years, and she was able to recount exactly what I did. So either-

Nolan Ether: Meaning the kids that were singing on stage when Shana was going to the service are now adults, potentially, or young adults.

Javier: So

Nolan Ether: the- I mean, these are genera- this has been going on for-

Javier: Yeah. So it, I mean, I guess what, what I'm gathering even just, like, from talking to Shana, is that- They are, they've done this a million times, right? So, like, they, they, they know what to do. So if a visitor's coming, boom, you switch into visitor mode. And, but, but one thing I can't prove is that Sh- what Shanna's saying is right. You know? 'Cause, like, I've only seen the, the happy... I mean, it looked like a Hallmark special.

Nolan Ether: And that's what they're go- counting on, right? I would guess, if it's true, right? We wanna assume, but that's, if they're saying on- the only people who are saying all this negative stuff are people who have left the church, who are saying bad things about us, anyone who ever comes to a service who isn't a part of the church sees the Hallmark special-

Javier: Yeah

Nolan Ether: the opening ceremony.

Javier: But then, again, I have a clip, and I'll play it now, actually, of, like, of Jane kind of berating a, a, a boy for playing sports.

Jane Whaley: And I was told to- Ball, even your ball socks, your ball shoes, everything. It's coming out of you. So be aware of it. It's called Satanism. It's

John Huddle: coming out. 'Cause he wants balls on his side.

Jane Whaley: It better not be. We just dealt with a s- major soccer devil down in Brazil two weeks ago. It's not gonna be. We will have no

Javier: other gods. He wants balls. We just read that. That's of the devil. Why do we play ball? So, like, that, the, what Shanna described as in, uh, using the pulpit as a way to, um, beat up, you know, not physically, but m- like, verbally attack her church members, I mean, there is evidence to support that, right? Next time on Pretend Radio, things are about to get really interesting. Jane Whaley invites me to her office for a private hour and a half conversation. It was a jaw-dropping interview. She answered just about every controversial issue facing the church, and we talk about the future of the church. This is John Huddle, a former member, reacting to my interview with Jane. Let's just put it this way. He was a little disturbed.

John Huddle: After hearing what you said and knowing how meticulous and deliberate she is with her words, I'm concerned. Jane does not say things lightly. She has a purpose in everything she says, and for her to say that to you is disturbing me

Javier: If you can't wait, the next episode is already up on Patreon. Just visit pretendradio.org and hit the donate button. Plus, I added a bonus episode on Paul McCartney's drummer, Joe English. Here's a preview I just think about coming here when I met Jane Whaley, and she could see that I was a, I was a troubled man. In the world, they all wanna hear about your history with Paul McCartney and Wings. They wanna know about that side. She wanted to help me because she knew that I had problems Also, I just received an email from the church attorney, Josh Farmer, asking me to take down these last two episodes because he claims that our meeting was off the record. Well, that's not gonna happen. I would have never agreed to an off-the-record meeting. Here's my response: "Josh, thank you for reaching out. This is an acknowledgement that I received your email. I want to inform you that I have no plans on altering my reporting. I would have never agreed to an off-the-record meeting. In fact, in my first email to Jane Whaley, I wrote, and I quote, 'My offer is for you to speak to my listeners directly,' unquote. That means on the record. Jane Whaley responded and said she needed to check with her attorneys. A few emails later, she invited me to attend service. Never did she mention that the recordings were not part of the agreement. After first greeting Mrs. Whaley and her family, I captured the first few minutes of our meeting. When I asked Mrs. Whaley if I could continue recording, she said she would like to get to know me better." Before we get too far- Mm-hmm ... is it okay if I, like, record, uh, throughout my day just to kinda, like, uh- No. No? No. Okay. All right. No re-

Jane Whaley: no recording. Okay. We got to get to know each other.

Javier: Okay. But then maybe afterwards, can we have a couple words? Well, we'll...

Jane Whaley: I'll, I'll meet with you afterwards. Okay.

Archival: After the service, yeah.

Jane Whaley: Yes.

Javier: Yeah, that's what I'm- Yeah ... I'm thinking. Soon after, I turned off the recorder, and I only recorded one song from the service. And if you recall, you were the one who offered me a copy of the service. I recorded the first song simply as a backup. As far as the recorded conversations, well, I only captured the first few minutes of my entrance into the building, and I held a microphone in plain sight. You can confirm this by listening to the crisp audio quality. Never was my microphone concealed, and you were never tricked. I would like to remind you that you invited a journalist on the record to observe your church. If you don't like the way I depicted our conversation, well, you're welcome to come on my show anytime you like and make your case. Thank you for your concern. Javier Leiva. I'll see you next week