S309: The Prophet – Inside the Mind of Cult Leader Jane Whaley

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: This is Christina Bryant. It's Friday, October 19th, 6:26. I'm getting ready to meet with Jane Whaley, um,

Javier: to talk- Christina Bryant is going undercover inside the Word of Faith Fellowship, and she's wearing a hidden microphone It's been six years since she last stepped foot inside the church. You see, Christina is a former member who has been excommunicated and is forbidden to contact her family. I

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: mean, I loved my family deeply, so I never, ever got over losing them by leaving.

Javier: If she ever wants to speak with her mother and family again, Christina's gonna have to go through Jane first. But why wear a hidden microphone? Why not just walk in there and speak with Jane?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: So I, I had my own ax to grind, and I definitely wanted to talk to Jane and see my family, but I also wanted to help get evidence and proof of the wrongdoing that happens there, the abuse.

Javier: Christina is about to go face-to-face with the real Jane Whaley. You see, when I interviewed Jane, I got to see the political side of her, the Jane she wanted the world to meet. Christina, on the other hand, is about to talk with the real Jane Whaley, the one everyone fears, and she got it all on tape.

Archival: You sin against the church, which I'm the pastor of the church, I'm the one God set in authority, and if you wanna make things right, then, in other words, we'll all come together with Jane and get it right. You gotta come back with me, too, 'cause I represent, quote, the church.

Javier: This is the point in the show where I should mention that we're gonna talk about some sexual and child abuse, and if this hits too close to home, you may wanna skip this one. But I have to admit, this three-hour recording is completely engrossing. I'm only playing this tape for you because Jane brings up some very interesting legal points regarding child abuse that I want to flesh out. She flat out says that she's not required by law to report sexual abuse because of pastor confidentiality. Is that true? How can that be true? So I reached out to my friend Rabia from the Undisclosed podcast for help. She put me in touch with her co-host, Colin Miller, who is a law professor, to walk me through what Jane said and how it applies to North Carolina law. I have to say, after talking with Colin, I'm kinda shocked. Take a deep breath, because you're about to go inside the mind of Jane Whaley. I'm Javier Leva, and this is Pretend Radio, season three: The Prophet. Ever since I released the first episode in this series, I've received countless messages through Facebook and email every night. Former members have poured their hearts out, each one with a unique story, yet all very similar. I can't tell you how many families have been torn apart because of this place. It just seems so unnecessary. Most people I talk to leave the church and they, they just wanna move on with their lives. Of course, they want this nightmare to end, but they just don't know what to do. It's kinda hopeless. But when Christina Bryant contacted me, her story was different. She's not ready to move on with her life. In fact, she's like Luke Skywalker in A New Hope. Her plan is to fly into the Death Star, find its weak point, and destroy it. She essentially went in undercover and tried to catch Jane Whaley in the act. As soon as I got my hands on this three-hour tape, I had to listen to it five times. It's fascinating, but some of it didn't quite make sense. I needed to call Christina to help me fill in some of the blanks So what were you wearing?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I bought one of those, um, slim recorders that you would, like, record a class or college notes. Journalists use them. It didn't have tape. You just put an SD card in it.

Javier: But where... How did you conceal it? Because, like, to me, but when I, when I was listening to this, I was so nervous because you were fumbling around and- with your phone and all that, and I kept thinking, "Oh my God, she is so gonna, like, show the recorder. Like, where is it?" You know what I mean?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: It's in my bra. I had it in my bra. I'm, uh... I was, I was definitely a larger girl then. Um, I've lost a lot of weight, so, uh, definitely more endowed then, and no, you couldn't... No, no, no. They hugged me, and they didn't even know it was there.

Javier: Okay, so you- you're, you're meeting with Jane. You walk in. She hugs you. You know, blah, blah, blah. You're making small talk, and it w- it wasn't until, like, an hour into the conversation that it really got serious, right?

Archival: He was sweet until he started... Same with . He would sit and masturbate all the time, and he didn't care who he did it in front of. Ugh. That's so disgusting. The, the young men, the young men down in that lower building kicked him out, out of their apartment, and wouldn't let him stay. It was so gross.

Javier: That is

Archival: disgusting.

Javier: That-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: You heard over and over again in the recording yourself Jane accusing all of these young men of masturbating all the time. They were just fully unclean. They masturbated all the time, and that's her excuse for every young man who leaves. Basically, these young men who, if they even put their hands in their pockets, they would be accused of masturbating. Like, Jane Whaley has this abnormal fixation on sexuality. I don't know why. I don't know if something happened to her as a child, but it's not normal. She feels like every young man is a sexual deviant, and for m- men in that church, young men in that church, have it hard.

Javier: So let me, let me ask a- about that because it's, it... I did hear her talking a lot. I mean, a lot of people were masturbating at that church, and masturbation is usually a very private thing. You know what I mean? So it's like, um, what, what do you think j- is Jane's definition of masturbation?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Jane knows what actual masturbation is. Why she chooses to Say that they're masturbating when they're not. I don't understand 'cause I don't know, may- maybe it is a little senile dementia going on there. I, I really don't understand why she's so fixated on that, but she obviously is

Javier: And it's targeted, it's targeted towards boys and men, right? Like, it, it, like, do women get accused of masturbating all the time or?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: No. No. Women do not get accused of masturbating all the time I mean, no. Not that I've heard of. I mean, did you hear any woman get accused of it in that recording?

Javier: Christina confronts Jane about a child who had bruises on him. The child says that Brooke Covington spanked him over and over again. Brooke, if you remember, is Jane's, quote-unquote, adopted daughter.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: And I asked her about the bruises. Could have had

Archival: bruises from his little doings down in the woods and everything.

Javier: Just in case you didn't catch that, Jane says that he got bruises from running in the forest. Christina corrects her and says that she's a trained nurse and knows that those bruises are consistent with paddling.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: He had linear bruises

Archival: like a paddle. Oh. DSS says you can have bruises- Right ... as long as they, you know, not such and such and such and such. Mm-hmm. And this wasn't. But I know the boy wasn't beat, but he did get a spanking.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Mm-hmm.

Archival: And I don't know whether it was Brooke, Shawn, or Kent. With that spanking, you won't get a bruise. Mm-hmm.

Javier: Jane claims that the Department of Social Services doesn't consider bruising abuse. Really? She can't be serious. Jane goes on to say that she hardly ever spanks her grandson, Brock.

Archival: I, I can count on probably one hand how many times when I just say, "You're choosing not to play." Oh, I don't want it to happen to me. K- forgive me, Jesus. Forgive me, Jesus.

Javier: Then later in the conversation, Christina asked Jane about a boy who was accused of sexually abusing another kid.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: My question is, if that did happen, why didn't you report it to the police?

Javier: Jane says she didn't know anything about it. I'm gonna beep out the boy's name because really it's not relevant to the story. What I want you to pay attention to very carefully is what Jane says about reporting sexual abuse.

Archival: I didn't know anything about it till left.

Javier: She could have stopped there, but Jane says that even if she knew about the abuse, she doesn't have to report it.

Archival: I don't have to.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: You don't

Archival: have to? It's ministerial confidentiality.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Oh, okay.

Archival: In North Carolina, you don't have to.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Okay.

Archival: But I have done that in the past, knowing it was ministerial confidentiality. I have two boys in the church now that I did not report it to because it had all stopped, and they were serving Jesus. Mm-hmm. And I found out about it way later. Mm-hmm. And, and I know according to ministerial confidentiality, I didn't- So you don't have

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: to.

Archival: I always wondered- I will not allow anybody to hurt anybody.

Javier: Let's break that down. First, she says that she doesn't have to report the abuse because she's a pastor, and what people tell her should be protected. Maybe that's true. Let's put a pin on that The next thing she says is that two boys have been involved in some sort of sexual abuse. But she didn't report it because they turned themselves to Jesus. That might be okay in Jane's mind, but not if that were my kid. But here's the kicker. She says she doesn't have to report it, but she would anyway, unless they find Jesus, then, then she won't, but she doesn't have to. You follow? What I learned from this tape is that Jane talks from both sides of her mouth, then contradicts that, and it's up to you to figure out which answer she really meant. But I hate to break it to you, Jane, you can't have it both ways. By sharing this tape, Christina had to reveal some really personal things with me, and she was brave enough to share it with you. You see, Christina is a victim of sexual abuse.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I was really badly sexually abused from the age of two until I was 10 by my step-grandfather. And- Uh, which, wh- which side is this? That was my dad's mom's- Is he- He's dead.

Javier: She tells Jane that after it happened, she reported the abuse to a minister, and that minister did nothing about it.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I opened up to Carol Reynolds about it, and she told me at the time not to tell my parents.

Archival: Most times, the man will deli- deny it.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Mm-hmm.

Archival: and make you out to be

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: the one Oh yeah, I know that now

Archival: that if it would go to the court, you would be the one. '

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Cause I remember growing up feeling like it was my fault. I let it happen

Javier: Listen to Jane. She's playing the role of a third-party bystander and not that of a pastor. Instead of sympathizing with Christina or acknowledging the accusation that she's making about her church's mishandling of the situation, Jane decides to go with the men are dogs argument. Of course it was his fault, but Christina wanted to know why Jane just sat there and did nothing.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Why didn't, you know, why didn't we do anything about it?

Archival: Because we didn't know about the law. All we knew as ministers, i- if anybody tells us something-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Mm-hmm ...

Archival: it's minister confidential. It's

Speaker: like

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: lawyer confidentiality.

Archival: It's again- it's against the law for us to, you know, repeat-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Right ...

Archival: what somebody tells us.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Right.

Archival: And so, but not me. If somebody tells me, now if a child wants it told, they gotta understand it will go before courts, it will go in the newspapers. You're

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: gonna have to tell everybody what he did to you or she did to you and-

Archival: Every detail.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Yep.

Archival: So which is, which hurts you both. Now, this has stopped. You've forgiven, you've got deliverance.

Javier: In other words, Jane could have reported it to the authorities, but she warns the victims that if they tell, everyone will know their business. So why don't you just go find Jesus and make all this go away?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I went to Carole as a kid. Why was I not given, why weren't the police notified? That was my question to her, because she should have at least given me the option to say, "Hey Or told my parents, for one. That should never have been kept from my parents because my grandfather kept abusing my cousins. By keeping this quiet didn't help anybody. If a child divu- divulges abuse, you're required to notify the police. So I, a minor, came to them and said, "Hey, I was abused. Um, this person's still alive and abusing people." Um, and instead of the authorities being notified and my parents being told, it was covered up. She's trying to say, "Oh, I notify the police. I would tell them if something was going on." But then on the other side of her mouth, she's saying, "I don't have to. Ministerial confidentiality."

Javier: Here's Jane talking about another girl who said she was sexually abused inside the church. The girl was 13 years old at the time. Her accused attacker, Keith Gridstaff, was 33 years old. I'm gonna beep out the victim's name for privacy reasons. Again, what's important is not who she is, but how Jane Whaley handles the situation.

Archival: I'm still gonna report it, just like the thing with and Keith, Keith Gridstaff. I went, um, I was in Brazil when that happened and, um, uh, she was 13, but she looked 20.

Javier: Jane says that she was out of town but instructed them to go straight to the police.

Archival: Or you go to the police. Keith went and, um, had told one of her friends, but that's when God spoke to me to call the DA. I knew nothing about that. It was so supernatural.

Javier: Okay, good. Jane instructed them to go immediately to the police. When Jane returned from Brazil, she went straight to the district attorney's office.

Archival: He- I went to the DA at that time and told them what happened and said it was as much her fault 'cause she had been molested as a child.

Javier: Wait, what? It was her fault, too, because she was molested as a child? No, it was confusing because it, it sounded like Jane was being sympathetic to her, but then all of a sudden at the end she said, "But I went to the DA and told them what happened, and it was her fault because she was molested as a child."

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: She told the DA to go easy on the abuser.

Javier: Keith Gridstaff eventually pled guilty to two counts of taking indecent liberties with a child. Christina is sitting with Jane Whaley reminiscing like old friends. She's risking so much by being there. Why do it?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: It always would boil down to we have no evidence. Like, it's, uh, your word against ours, and yet everybody knew what was happening there was true, but we didn't have any proof of it.

Javier: And what's in it for Jane? Why is she even entertaining this conversation? Was she trying to recruit Christina to come back into the church?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: But I never wanted to go back. I never, ever wanted to go back, but I pretended that I might.

Javier: How did you even get a meeting with Jane?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Um, a few months before that, actually, I sent Jane a text just randomly. Uh, I would do that from time to time, basically telling her, "What you're doing is wrong by keeping me away from my family." I sent Jane a text message- I was hurting. I did not have my family. I was bitter. Not bitter, I was just angry. It wasn't right that she kept my family from me, but... So I send her a text, "Hi Jane. This is Christina. I too am sick of the lies, the deception, and the double standards, and the destroying of families. Imagine trying to explain to a three-year-old why she ca- doesn't have a grandmother. Imagine wishing she... Imagine wishing you could have a normal relationship with your mother. I'm thinking I'm no longer afraid of you or anyone else at the Word of Faith. Oh, and I'm not another ex-Word of Faith flunky, drugged out, or in jail. I'm a respected individual with an awesome career and a beautiful family. So go ahead and tell the congregation how reprobate I am. The only one who will look like a fool in the end is you, my dear." That's what I sent her, which I gotta say, uh, was probably a little bold on my end. Uh, never sent her anything like that, but hey.

Javier: Jane never responded to Christina's text message, but somebody else did. Christina's brother, who was still in the church, he randomly sent Christina a threatening message. He wrote...

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: So this is the copy of the message he sent me completely out of the blue. "God will not be mocked. What you sow, you will reap. I hope you learned your lesson. Stop sinning or something worse will happen to you. It may cost you your life next time." Are you threatening me? That was the gist of how I took the text. And, um, so from that point, I text- He wouldn't respond to me, um, so I text Jane and say to her, um, "If you have something to say to me, say it to me, not through my family. That just shows me how you hide behind your people."

Javier: So it's been six years since you've left the church, right? All of a sudden, your, your brother, out of the blue, starts harassing you, and then you're like, "What the heck?" You know? "What, what is this all about?" And so you ask Jane, like, "Hey, what's going on?" Right? And then she says what?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: She says, "I don't know what you're talking about. I have not sent, a, you any messages. You are going crazy."

Javier: Jane writes... "

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Okay, you are godless. No, if I have anything to say to you or anyone else, I have never gone through anyone. I will say it to you." I said, "Okay. I can respect that, and I'm sorry to assume he was talking through you." And I d- I apologized to her. I don't wish harm on anyone. She says, "I love you. You can be a little sassy mouth when you're upset." And I was like, "LOL, I can." Now I am totally playing here. Like, I'm playing her. I know exactly what I'm saying, and I know what I'm doing.

Javier: Yeah, but she's also, she's also being very calculated too. Like, what do you think she's doing?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I was able to start creating the dialogue with her. I said, "Jane, I know that Word of Faith is not for me, but it doesn't change the fact that I have family members there. I would like to arrange a meeting with you so we can talk about the different things that happened over the years so that my daughter can know her grandmother." "It's not me," she says. "It's not me. I will see what your family wants. I'm out of town." Bull fucking shit it is her. She's the one who decides, but yet of course she says it's their decision, but whatever.

Javier: Is Jane wanting you back? Is that what she's doing?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Yes, absolutely. She thinks that she's gonna get me back.

Javier: But I mean, you made it pretty clear in your previous text messages that you were-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Not going back ...

Javier: yeah, so that- She, well- ... that's kind of fascinating in a, in a way. Like- '

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Cause she thinks she can change people's mind.

Javier: She's up for the challenge.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Exactly.

Javier: But you have, at this point though, you have an in. I mean, sh- you, you broke-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I did. I broke th- I, I did. I, I broke through her... The fact that she's even responding to me is huge.

Javier: But let me ask you, I, I mean, yeah, it is huge, but, but I'm, I, I gotta wonder, I mean, now you have Jane Whaley, she's s- she's kind of opening the door. She, she says, "Let me see what your family wants. It's not up to me. Let me see what your family wants." I mean, is your, in your head, is your motivation right now, like, "I, I wanna get back in touch with my family"? Or is your primary, primary motivation is to, "Hey, you know what? We don't have concrete proof against this church. Maybe this is a good opportunity"? Or was it both? Uh-

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: It was both. Honestly, it, it was definitely both. I miss my family. I mean, I practically helped raise my siblings. I miss them. Like, it was not a day that went by that I didn't miss them. And, um, I tried. I tried everything that Jane said to try to keep the communication open after I left the church. You know, quote, "Don't attack," and, you know, "Don't wear jeans," and, "Don't do this, and you can still have a relationship with your family." And at the end of the day, it's all a lie. That's what they tell people inside the church. "Oh, if you don't attack, you can leave any day you want. And just as long as you don't attack, you can still have a relationship with your family." It's a lie. It's not true. I did play quiet, and I still didn't have my family. But what if someday my niece or any of my other nieces or nephew comes to me and says, "Christina, you knew what was going on there, but y- you didn't try to help." Like, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try.

Javier: So now Jane is trying to reel Christina back into the church.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: My question, you mentioned that I've spread lies.

Javier: Jane tells Christina that she's attacked the church on social media by posting comments on Facebook mocking Jane and befriending enemies of the church.

Archival: You equated me and this church as a crazy religious nut killing people in the name of Christ. Now, see? Right there. That's enough for your fa- family not to have anything to do with you. That's enough for nobody in this church to have anything to do with you for life.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: The question is, how do you guys see that? 'Cause my page is private.

Archival: Somebody always sends it to me.

Javier: You asked a very good question about your Facebook page being private and how things get... H- How did they know what you posted on your private Facebook page?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: So apparently I had somebody who was playing both sides of the fence. Somebody printed off that, uh, post on my private Facebook and gave that to her. So you hear her asking a question about that.

Javier: Well, and not only asking a question, but kind of telling you what you need to do and who you need to unfriend.

Archival: So if you ha- if you don't r- remove them as your friends, we'll have nothing to do with you 'cause he doesn't like what he's seeing happen to you. Mm-hmm. None of your family do. They love you, and they wanna walk with you, and they want you to serve God. That doesn't mean we can't have a relationship with you. Mm-hmm. If you attack, the word of God says we are to have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with you. Jesus came with a sword to divide. Mm-hmm. He'll divide families. He came to divide the righteous from the unrighteous.

Javier: So all that stands between Christina and her family is Jane. Follow Jane's rules or else.

Archival: I'm gonna tell you, you're not gonna wear that nose ring in your nose when you come here.

Javier: Mm-hmm.

Archival: You're not gonna wear that black eyeshadow when you come here. You're not gonna come in with your tight jeans. Our children will say that. "Look at them. They've got their hair spiked. They are of the devil. We need to pray for them."

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Well, if you have a tissue, I'll take it off

Javier: At this point, Christina will do anything just to see her family again. But I can't end this story here. I have so many legal questions about what Jane said. Is it really okay to leave bruises on a child? Can a pastor legally withhold reports of sexual abuse? That can't be true, right? So I called up Collin Miller, co-host of the Undisclosed podcast. Collin is also an associate dean and professor at the University of South Carolina School of Law. Th- there's a couple of interesting things that are happening here, because she says that she doesn't have to report it because of, like, clergy confidentiality or pastor confidentiality, but she's also saying that she has reported some in the past. So, uh, let's tease those two things out a little bit here. Um, th- does she, as a pastor, have that privilege in the state of North Carolina? If, if somebody reports sexual abuse, does... Is she required by law to report the, the abuser or the alleged abuser? Yeah, so this is something that exists in every state, which is, it's phrased differently. It could be, like, the clergy person congregant privilege, or the priest-penitent privilege. Uh, we have it in North Carolina. And what it says essentially is if you have someone who is seeking out a priest, a rabbi, some other religious authority, and they are seeking religious advice in their professional capacity, and they're doing so in confidence, that there's this privilege that exists that says that not only does the clergy person not have to report this, but in fact, confidentiality requires them not to disclose this confidential communication. She was a teen when she reported this. I guess her concern was that this guy was still out there still, uh, molesting kids. So, like, uh, th- you're saying that by law, really, she doesn't, she's not obligated, right? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, not only is she not obligated, but also she is prohibited from reporting this under the privilege. And so in other words, the point is We have these privileges that are broadly known as professional privileges. So we have, like, attorney-client privilege, psychotherapist-patient privilege, and we have this priest-penitent privilege, and the purpose of these privileges is we have these... They're called professional relationships, and the thinking by legislatures is we want people to be able to have these fruitful conversations with a lawyer, with a priest, et cetera, without the fear that what you say will be exposed. And so that's why this privilege says if I go to a priest or a rabbi and I, in confidence, am disclosing my bad acts, the bad acts of someone else, that that person of religious authority has to keep that confidence and is not allowed to disclose it. She, she did say in that clip that she doesn't have to report it, but she has, right? So in that case, if she would've reported something like this to the police, would she be excluded to be a witness in court? I mean, is that what, what this means? Exactly. Exactly. And so exactly that is saying that if you have someone who goes to their priest or their rabbi and in seeking spiritual guidance they disclose a crime, whether committed by them or someone else, and thereafter you're having a criminal prosecution and they have called this priest, this rabbi to testify at the trial, the defendant in that case would be able to say, "We have this law in North Carolina, General Statute, as you said, 853.2. It says that this priest, this rabbi, is incompetent to testify against me on grounds of privilege," and so that person would not be allowed to testify. So she's technically right. Jane is prohibited from testifying because of her penitent privilege. But, but there's a big but here. Either Jane doesn't understand the law or is distorting it at her convenience. Christina, she's, she's the one confessing this. If she wants the, her pastor Jane to, to testify, I mean, is she still excluded to be a witness in court? If I, for instance, went to a clergy person, confessed to a murder, or were seeking forgiveness based upon my crime or someone else's crime, if I were to go into court at a subsequent trial and say, "I'm fine with this priest testifying about what I divulged in confession," then in that case, that person would be able to testify. The penitent privilege, the way I understand it, and I'm not a lawyer, is that it's Christina's privilege, not Jane's. Christina is the one who is seeking spiritual advice. It's her right if she wants Jane to testify or not. I asked Colin about the comments Jane made about the Department of Social Services allowing some bruising on children. In this, in this clip, so she says that DSS, which is the Department of Social Services, allows some bruising, right? From your... From a legal point of view, I know you don't represent the Department of Social Services or anything, but from your understanding of the law, what, what constitutes a- as a abuse? Is, like, a simple bruise, um, enough, or is it a bruise that, that's... You know, 'cause a bruise could... You could bruise a, a, a kid and, and it could leave a red mark and it goes away in a couple seconds. Or you could bruise a kid and, and maybe that bruise will stay there for a day or two. Or you could bruise a kid so bad that it could land the kid in the hospital. But, like, you know, because there's so many, I guess, gradients there, like, what, from your understanding, constitutes as abuse? Yeah, and so this is something that deals with the use of corporal punishment, and what we know is there are nineteen states, mostly in the South, including both North Carolina and South Carolina, that allow for the use of corporal punishment. And North Carolina's standard is somewhat ambiguous. It just says that school personnel can use reasonable force to control behavior. And so it seems like if this is an accurate statement that DSS in North Carolina has determined that you can have some bruising that's consistent with reasonable force. But that's the ultimate touchstone there in North Carolina is what's considered reasonable force, but there's not a per se ban on the use of corporal punishment. In fact, you might be surprised to learn that nineteen states, including North Carolina, allow corporal punishment. That means it's legal for a parent or guardian to spank, paddle, or smack a kid in order to punish bad behavior.

Archival: So, you know, I was, I was looking up a

Javier: parent's right to use corporal punishment, and it was, uh, it was a statement, and I could forward it to you, but it says, "North Carolina allows for the use of corporal punishment by a child's teacher, principal, or assistant principal, so as long as excessive force, which is defined as force that causes injury that requires medical attention beyond first aid, is not used." So, like, the way I read that was, you know, does it have to hurt a child so bad that it requires first aid for it to be considered abuse? Yeah, right, and that is this dichotomy that we're dealing with is, right, we have this line where reasonable force is allowed, and as you noted, we have the prohibition, which is on excessive force, which as you said, it is injury that requires medical attention beyond simple first aid. And so the question is, what exactly are we talking about in terms of medical attention if the child has bruising on their behind based upon a vigorous spanking? Does that require medical attention? I mean, obviously, something that is a sprain or a fracture or a broken bone, of course, would require medical attention. But yeah, it's that question of the line between what's reasonable and what's excessive, which then relates to the question of what requires medical attention beyond simple first aid. That would go back to that touchstone of reasonable force. And so, you know, the question there would be when you look to the definition of reasonable force, it's you can use reasonable force to correct students, to quell a disturbance, to obtain weapons, for self-defense, to protect persons or property, and there's this last one, which is to maintain order on educational property. Now, you know, the question that would be asked would be if you have this baby and the baby is crying, or the infant, is the putting of that child down reasonable when you're looking at those six different criteria? Uh, I, I think there's an argument that could be made, but it's definitely nebulous enough where you could look at that and say, "I really don't think that that's reasonable behavior when you're talking about a child, baby, or an infant." I spoke with North Carolina licensed attorney Paul Dietz about this. Let's just put it this way, Paul Dietz is one of the few attorneys who has ever questioned Jane Whaley on the stand. He's no stranger to the Word of Faith Fellowship. There's no bright line that they employ that's like if you hit a child and it leaves a bruise, it's automatically abuse. And if you hit a child and it's, there's no bruise, then it's automatically not abuse. Abuse is looked at kind of by the totality of the circumstances and the severity of the harm to the child. Bruising certainly can be evidence of abuse and can lead to an abuse charge. There are other things that can lead to abuse charges as well that are going on at the Word of Faith. For instance, the emotional harm of a child, such as is evidenced by the child's depression or anxiety or post-traumatic stress. Earlier in the season, we talked about the blasting prayers being a form of protected speech. But there have been numerous accusations of shaking, spanking, and beatings. Yet the church reached a settlement with the Department of Social Services and was able to shut down future reports of abuse because they reserved the rights to practice their screaming prayer. But it doesn't say anything about physical abuse. Do you feel that because of the way the, the law is written and because of the fact that the Word of Faith has taken great, gone through great measures to protect their form of worship, that, that maybe the Department of Social Services is a little gun shy when dealing with, uh, an abuse allegation? I think that's a fair statement that I do believe that, uh, DSS is, um A little bit gun shy about intervening in Lord of Faith cases because they are afraid of either being found in contempt or being sued. But I will say this, I've read that consent order. And of course, nobody should be taking children away from any religion based on the religion's beliefs. But the First Amendment doesn't give a religion carte blanche to abuse children either. So if you're, if the way that you are doing your worship is harming or abusing or in any way hurting children, you can't fall back on freedom of religion to excuse that. But Paul Deed says that just because there's penitent privilege that protects Jane from testifying in court doesn't mean that she can't report abuse to the police. clergy are absolutely required to report incidents of child abuse or neglect that come to their attention. There is no exception at all for clergy. She is just dead wrong on that. So whereas she is absolutely required to report that abuse or neglect to authorities, she may not be compelled to testify in court. But those are two completely separate issues. But the whole time, the three hours taped, she's gossiping about everybody.

Archival: It's all a lie. I didn't know he's gay. His dad texts him back and says, nobody in this church knew you were gay.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Yeah. Because he

Archival: talked to me one time. So now the gays are going to be stirred up. All upset. Because we kicked the gays out of the church.

Javier: Yeah, and that's an interesting issue that could come up if that ever, if that situation ever came up. If this is something that she has told others about already, then she's already waived that confidentiality and she can't then fall back on it. After a two-hour one-on-one conversation with Jane Whaling, Christina was able to convince Jane that she was ready to follow her rules in order to be reunited with her family. Remember, she hadn't seen them in years. But I mean, so basically you got to meet your family that day?

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: I did. Mm-hmm. I did. Very guardedly. It was very, um... It wasn't a big, happy reunion. In fact, listening to it, it was very anti-climatic. You wouldn't ex- you wouldn't think it was a daughter being reunited with her mother and sisters and brothers after nearly four years.

Javier: It sounded like you were talking to a bunch of acquaintances.

Word of Faith Fellowship Member: Exactly. Exactly. In fact, I met my niece for the very first time in that room. They weren't allowed to be excited to see me or allowed to show any interest in wanting to see me. I wanna make a difference, Javier. Like, I wish I knew what we could say that could ignite the fire and the indignation that I feel and that so many people feel, but what is it? Because you think that beating babies and screaming at them would be enough, but obviously it's not. Because I saw my little brother get held down and screamed at till he would pass out from exhaustion, and that's just, you know, one of minor stories. But that's not enough to get people mad to stop anything. So, like, what is enough? Does somebody have to die inside of that place before enough is enough? Like, when is enough enough? That's what I ask.

Javier: Hey guys. If you were anything like me, last Tuesday night you were popping a bowl of microwave popcorn and getting ready to watch The Devil Next Door, A&E's documentary on the Word of Faith Fellowship. Well, I bet you were just as surprised as I was that the network A&E pulled it off the air without any warning or explanation. Coincidentally, the Saturday before, I got an email from Josh Farmer, the church attorney, saying that he found evidence that A&E and the production company paid off the former members who participated in the show. Josh Farmer pointed out that this is unethical. Reputable news organizations would never pay any of their subjects. But while that may seem unethical, A&E is not a news network. Sure, they're trying to pass this off as a documentary, but in reality, it's just entertainment. And I called one of my producer friends who works in the industry, and he says that this is common practice for the shows that you see on Discovery ID, A&E, Netflix, AMC. Those cast members are probably getting paid. Now, if The New York Times or The Washington Post or ABC News paid one of their, uh, subjects, well, that would be unethical. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I just wanted to point out that this is common practice. A&E came back and issued a statement saying that they postponed the show because the producer decided to add more footage and reporting, which I gotta tell you, the payments, pretty common practice. Pulling a show the night before it airs is highly unusual. You know what else is highly unusual? When Josh Farmer, the church attorney, emailed me that press release, he had a copy of the check made out to one of the former Word of Faith members. The check was from the production company called Flygirls LLC and it was to the amount of $3,336. Now, that's not a whole lot of money. A&E says that they pay participants of the show to cover costs of childcare, lost wages, you know, that kind of stuff. What I find interesting is how the heck did Josh Farmer, the attorney, get a photo of the check written to one of the former members? The word on the street is that somebody took a picture of this check and turned it into the church so they could see their family members. Anyway, this is all very bizarre I also want to thank our new Patreon supporters. You guys are amazing. Amy Helms, Martin Kunz, Christina Alejo, Melissa Olay, Ashley Black, and Jane Thrope. You guys are awesome, and I really appreciate your support. Now, if you want to listen to the next episode, it's available right now. Just visit the website at pretendradio.org and hit the donate button. Plus, remember how I mentioned that Paul Dietz is the only attorney who has ever cross-examined Jane Whaley on the stand? Well, he shares his story, and I'm going to post that mini episode on Patreon. And I got a correction to make. In one of the previous episodes, I mentioned that State Senate candidate David Wheeler got invited to speak with Jane. And instead of coming alone, he brought a news crew and recorded it all on Facebook Live. Well, I mentioned off the cuff while talking to my friend Nolan that they got arrested for trespassing. They were never arrested, and a judge dismissed the charges. One more thing I have to mention before we go. This episode was edited by Logan Castrodale. She wanted to help out with the show, and I ended up giving her the hardest episode to edit. I think she did an awesome job. And Logan wants to contribute to this show, so you might hear from her in season four. All right, guys, that's all I got for this week. Now check out these awesome shows.

Archival: Hey, this is Olivia. And I'm Tishana. We're the hosts of Something's Not Right. We do a bunch of research, and then we tell each other crazy stories. They're usually about true crime, but we're down to talk about anything strange or disturbing. So if that sounds like your kind of thing and you don't mind a little salty language, check us out. For more info on Something's Not Right, visit notrightpodcast.net. I'm Nikki T., the host of Strictly Homicide, a narrative true crime podcast that covers the lesser-known cases that have happened in the Natural State. Find us on iTunes, Spotify, Podbean, and all major podcast apps. Visit strictlyhomicide.com or find us on social media by searching Strictly Homicide Podcast. Until then, stay safe, especially you, Arkansas.