The Gypsy Rose Obsession, Part 10

Javier: We all know how this story ends. Dee Dee Blanchard was murdered in 2015, and her daughter helped plan it. But when Gypsy was a little girl, her mother was her whole world, and I wanted to know when that changed. Well, you said in the book too that, you know, sometimes the, the thing that would bring you the most comfort was the touch of your mother's skin.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah.

Javier: And then how did that change over the years?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I think it changed because our dynamic changed. It, it was no longer about- I'm feeling loved by her. It's kind of like I, at some point she became the enemy, I became the enemy to her, but then it's kind of like you, she knew that the moment she let me go was the moment the web of lies would come crashing down. so when I met Nick, it's kind of like that, that love and all that codependency kind of switched to him now.

Javier: And so then all of a sudden, what, what gave you comfort about your mom m- like repulsed you or like-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No, it, it was just, I didn't feel anything anymore. Mm. Like the attachment was no longer there. Yeah. Because it was, it, that codependen- codependency was being filled by somebody else now, you know? But it, it, it was just, it switched ownership.

Javier: In her book, Gypsy writes about how Dee Dee used guilt to keep her in line,

Speaker: Dee Dee's thick skin

Javier: can you tell me? can I repeat the line the way you remember it?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah, it was, um, yeah, "I may, I may look like a rhino, but, um, I don't have thick skin like one." So. Yeah. Um, so a lot of times our relationship that we had was, especially in later years, was kind of like this m- marriage. Mm-hmm. That was an unhappy marriage, that we're coexisting together. A hierarchy is established, and you stay in your place.

Javier: Yeah. No, uh, I mean, that makes sense. A- and you're codependent on each other too. Mm-hmm, yeah. Like, a- and in positive ways too. Like, y- Yeah ... you're each other's world, right?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah. Codependency, um, was definitely the thing that I would say affected me the most, and still does affect me later in life too.

Javier: You're listening to the final episode of The Gypsy Rose Obsession. I'm Javier Leiva, and this is PRETEND, stories about real people pretending to be someone else. Before my Gypsy series aired, I called one of my favorite people, my friend Andrew Barbari, just to get his take on this story. He brought up something I hadn't thought about. It was a little dark and morbid, which is very unlike Andrew.

Andre Barbari: My thought process with that too though, Javi, was that, like, couldn't you have also maybe thought of a different way to... This is gonna sound really bad. But, like, instead of a brutal murder, like, her mother's health was not well. Right, right. She had other means to, to, to, to potentially say it was an accidental overdose.

Javier: Why the violent death?

Andre Barbari: Why the violent death?

Javier: Right.

Andre Barbari: Yeah.

Javier: Yeah. And, and-

Andre Barbari: Like, why a violent death?

Javier: It turns out Gypsy had thought about that too.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: But then there's this other side that almost felt like murder was a, an, an act of mercy towards her. In one of the prison calls, Gypsy explains why waiting it out wasn't an option. And her health had not been the best, but it wasn't enough to be chronically, you know, debilitating to where she was going to pass anytime soon. Mm-hmm. So it's like she lived with type two diabetes. That was it. that was not something like cancer that's going to be quick and swift and, and her to pass away, and that'd be it.

Javier: Maybe Gypsy pitied her mom. Maybe she hated her. Maybe she felt trapped and wanted out. All of those things can be true at the same time. The Gypverse either can't hold more than one truth at once, or it doesn't want to. I believe Gypsy when she says she had her mother killed to get her freedom. Every explanation she's given since the murder points in that direction, even the ones in the prison calls that contradict each other.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: The only reason we committed the murder is so that we could be together.

Javier: She means Nick. In her mind, there was no other way out. Years later, while she was still in prison, she married Ryan Anderson. The way I see it, that was another way out, a life already waiting for her when she walked free. Nancy Simpson with The Toll podcast doesn't buy that there was no other way out. do you think that, uh, this, that there was another way or do you think that the murder was kind of the intention? It was, it just kinda boiled over and this, it was personal at that point

Nancy Simpson: Yeah, she had a million other ways, in my opinion, handle this. Um, she, she could have walked away at any point. She

Javier: Maybe it wasn't, maybe it wasn't about walking away.

Nancy Simpson: She could walk

Javier: Yeah

Nancy Simpson: literally away. Um, it, it... In my opinion, this didn't have to end in murder. She could have found another way.

Javier: Maybe she could have. Gypsy has said over and over that the murder was Plan B. Plan A was to run away, but running away from Dee Dee wasn't that simple. Gypsy was an adult when she had her mother killed, so there was nothing legally binding her to Dee Dee. Or was there? On August 19, 2013, almost two years before the murder, Gypsy signed a durable power of attorney for health care that named Dee Dee as her agent. Most of Dee Dee's powers only kicked in if a doctor certified that Gypsy couldn't make her own decisions. Gypsy told me she didn't really understand what she was signing. To her, it felt like she was signing all her rights away. The birth date on the document is wrong. Gypsy was 22 years old that day, but the power of attorney says she had just turned 18. So I called the attorney who drew it up. She agreed to talk to me once Gypsy signed a notarized release. She told me the birth date on the document came from Dee Dee. She also remembers meeting the two of them, and she said Dee Dee originally came in looking for guardianship. That's a whole different ball of wax. A power of attorney is something you can take back whenever you want. A guardianship, only a judge can undo. Once a judge declares you incapacitated, you can lose the right to decide where you live, who your doctors are, even who you're allowed to see. According to the attorney, Dee Dee told her Gypsy was mentally disabled. The attorney says she told Dee Dee that no court would consider guardianship without a doctor certifying in writing that Gypsy was incapacitated, so they went the power of attorney route instead. Dee Dee walked into that office saying her daughter was mentally disabled, and she walked out with a document, signed by two witnesses, that said Gypsy was of sound mind. She didn't get the guardianship she came in for, but it didn't matter. Gypsy already believed she belonged to her mother. Today, Gypsy is 35 years old, and she's finally free of her mother and free of the criminal justice system. When I visited Louisiana to interview Gypsy, we talked about this.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: If you think about it, I have been locked up in some form or fashion, isolated in some form or fashion for, you know, 32 years. Mm-hmm. So it's like I lived my life with my mom in this sort of pseudo idolat- uh, isolation bubble where it's like, yes, you know, you're getting socialized, but it's with other adults, and you're not really socialized because you're kept from really speaking- Mm-hmm and, and, and being who you are, to prison. And again, isolation, more freedom than before, but you still can't grow normal. And so coming out of prison, if you think about it, I have only had two years of full freedom. So that means in these last two years, I've had to take driver's test. I've had to learn how to pay bills. I have had to cram an entire teen years, 20 years, and in my 30s, and try to land exactly where I am,

Speaker: REAL AGE. REAL LIES.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: That power of attorney isn't the only document with the wrong age. In Gypsy's medical records, her birth year jumps from 1991 to 1995 depending on which hospital you're looking at. Gypsy has said that at certain points in her childhood, she didn't even know her real age. Her critics don't buy it.

Content Creator: But I didn't know my real age. My mom made me lie. Bitch. But in one of the prison calls, Gypsy tells a different story.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Remember, this was something whenever I did turn 13. I did not wanna tell my age to people because people always, whenever a girl turns 13, it seems like the majority of society is like, "Oh, my God, she's a teenager now. You better start preparing for those, you know, difficult years, you know, crazy teenage years."

Javier: So maybe Gypsy was in on it too, with her age and even with her ability to walk. But why would a kid go along with that? Doctors have a phrase for part of this. They call it learned illness behavior. The idea is pretty simple: kids learn fast what gets them love and attention at home, and they'll do whatever works. A researcher named Dr. William Whitehead published a study on it. He found that adults who remembered getting gifts or special treats whenever they were sick as kids were more likely to have what doctors call chronic illness behavior: more doctor visits, more symptoms, and more disability than their test results could explain. Dr. John Melville, a child abuse pediatrician I spoke with for my bonus episode, told me it's not uncommon for kids in these cases to take part in the deception. Think of it like a vending machine. If a kid presses the button for "I'm lonely" or "I'm scared," nothing comes out. But the second they press the button for "I have a fever" or "my stomach hurts," the machine lights up, and out come back rubs, chicken soup, and a lot of attention. In Gypsy's case, out came parades, swimming with dolphins, and trips to Disney. Seen that way, Gypsy playing sick wasn't an elaborate scam. It may have been the only language her mother understood.

Speaker: Inconsistent Memories After Abuse I wanted to get Andrea Dunlop's perspective on this

Javier: And, you know, I think, um, another thing that people would say, uh, because the people who, uh, like you said earlier, the, it's ludicrous to think that there's two sides, right? That you're pro-Gypsy or anti-Gypsy because this is a very complicated person. She's not one-dimensional. Um, but people find themselves in either camp, and the, the people that are in the anti-Gypsy camp point to inconsistencies in her story. And okay, so there's inconsistencies in her story. Does that negate the fact that she experienced abuse, you know

Andrea Dunlop: I mean no If we expect abuse victims to be perfect and have perfect recall of events and to never act strangely or act chaotically or act inappropriately that is a standard that very few people especially who have you know have lifelong severe abuse are going to meet In fact almost no one right Um and also like very few humans right I think like it would be very expected for anyone who's been in this situation to have a pretty complicated relationship with reality itself and trying to sort through what actually did happen and also to be truthful right And that's something that I I really um admire that Gypsy kinda met that headon when I was talking to her and I've heard her talk about that in a couple of other in interviews right When when you are being told to lie when you are being coopted into this manipulation yeah your relationship with the truth is gonna be a bit shaky And so that's gonna take time to recover from and take time and a lot of therapy and a lot of work it's very likely to make Munchausen by proxy victims i you know internalize this idea that like Well was I at fault Like I I did kinda know that my mom was lying about this so does that mean it's my fault Does that mean I won't be believed if I come forward Are people going to like go back through my social media that I did not consent to being a part of and pick apart everything that's why they have to make her not a victim I think that's why like people have to go to this place of like Oh well she wasn't really a victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse because if they accept that she was a victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse then they have to look at what they're doing which is picking apart which is really savagely picking apart someone who was a victim of abuse right Which is not a good look So I think that's why they have to go to Well she wasn't really a victim and and Dee Dee was a good mother

Javier: That's why I don't put too much stock in the prison calls where it sounds like Gypsy was in on the con, or even running it. Her critics will point out that Gypsy was an adult when she had her mother killed, and she was an adult when she made those prison calls, some of them just a few years ago. That's true. But most of what she's describing in those calls happened when she was a kid. When a grown woman looks back and admits she went along with her mother's lies, that doesn't make her the mastermind. To me, it shows how well the abuse worked. She was a victim of medical and psychological abuse, and the medical records back that up. Gypsy should be held responsible for what she's done as an adult, and she was. She served her time. For a lot of her critics, that's still not enough, and one of the things that bothers them most is how much kids and teenagers love her.

Speaker: Appeal to Gen Alpha

Javier: I just find it fascinating 'cause the documentary you said came out in 2017?

Gypsy: Mm-hmm.

Javier: Okay.

Gypsy: Mm.

Javier: Um, that was a l- long time ago.

Gypsy: Yeah, it was a long time ago.

Javier: And yet kids are like, like I told my daughter and her friends that I was coming to see you- Mm-hmm ... and they were freaking out like I was going to see a celebrity. Should I show her the video? Oh,

Gypsy: I gotta see this.

Javier: And, but I just think it's so funny because she was just so, like, excited, and she's like, "You gotta tell Gypsy. You gotta tell Gypsy." So play it.

Sammy: it It's you guys, this is Sam Marie. I just wanted to send you a video saying hi.

Gypsy: Aw.

Javier: So

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: sweet.

Javier: But I mean, this is a 14-year-old kid.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Uh-huh.

Javier: And why, why do you think you have an appeal to, to that generation? You know, like I could understand- And- ... our generation.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Right Right? Um, you know, it's something that the, the only thing that I can think of is but there is certain things that I'm discovering for the first time that I should have discovered in my teens, like dancing on TikTok, these dance trends- Yeah ... on TikTok. You know, I'm enjoying that, and I'm not ashamed to say that, yeah, maybe emotionally, maybe, experience-wise, I'm not 34 years old. I, you know, I'm experiencing all this at 34. So I, I don't know. I mean, I guess they can kind of relate, 'cause here they are doing these same things.

Javier: Yeah.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: that-

Javier: That's interesting. Yeah.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah ... i- you know, that's, that's how I think about it.

Javier: Yeah. This is wild. Like, it's- And like you said, you don't consider yourself famous. You are- No ... just well-known.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I'm just well-known. I don't like the term famous. I don't like the term celebrity. I am well-known. Um, but like to my friends, I'm just Gypsy. You know? Yeah. There's a huge part of me that just kind of wants to be known for being who I am and not my past. Yeah.

Javier: So. That's gotta be hard.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I

Javier: know.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah. I

Javier: know. That conversation took place back in June, and a lot has changed since then. Gypsy turned 35, the prison calls came out, and it seems like all hell broke loose in her life. Then Gypsy decided to leave social media, and she sent me this message. Here's Audacious Audrey reacting to it.

Audacious Audrey: Gypsy Rose put out a statement about her social media, and she apparently did it through the Pretend Podcast guy. "I've decided to concede to the online hate and leave public social media. They have been successful at their goal. They will continue to spread hate and negativity." What she means is the truth in calling out her lies. She goes on, "And I will remain a villain to the world." Girl, you are a villain. Gypsy has taken breaks from social media before, but this one seems to be lasting longer than usual. I'd bet both sides think that's a good thing. The question is whether leaving will make any of it stop.

Speaker: WILL IT EVER STOP?

Javier: is there anything that you could do to satisfy them?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No.

Javier: Right.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No. I mean, I, I'm out here living my life as a mother and a partner, and I have not committed a crime since being released from prison, and they still, i- it's still, like, deeming me a threat to society in their eyes.

Javier: If you were not, if you... 'Cause you have a choice, right? Mm-hmm. It is a choice for you to be public.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm.

Javier: It is a choice for you to make those TikTok videos. Yeah. It's a choice for you to make these documentaries. Mm. Nobody's forcing you to m- make them, right? Right, right.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No.

Javier: But if you decided that tomorrow, that you're done with the limelight, that you're gonna leave it all behind-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah

Javier: would that baggage ever leave you behind?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No. The, you know, the... I'm sure the haters or critics would still find some way to reach my life, just maybe not in such an obvious way. So I think this, this is, this is something that is my burden. The court of public opinion is my burden for the rest of my life.

Javier: Andrea Dunlop, host of the Nobody Should Believe Me podcast, thinks part of this comes down to the fact that Gypsy is a woman.

Andrea Dunlop: I think we need to approach these situations with a with a lot more compassion than we currently do And unfortunately I think one of the things Gypsy's a victim of is that we love to take a woman and just build her up tear her down tear her to shreds pick her apart

Javier: I think about this a lot. If Gypsy were Black or Latina, I don't think the internet would be tearing her apart, because I don't think the internet would know her name. Her whiteness bought her the public's sympathy. The moment she stopped acting like a fragile victim and started living like a grown woman, a lot of that sympathy turned into contempt. What if Gypsy were a man? If Gypsy were a man, I think the courts would have been harder on him and the internet would have been a lot easier on him, because we don't believe boys are victims and we don't police men for moving on. The Menendez brothers killed both of their parents, and they have fan accounts. Luigi Mangione stood up in federal court in August and admitted he shot and killed a healthcare CEO on a Manhattan sidewalk, and a lot of people still treat him like a folk hero. Where are their snark subreddits? Gypsy was abused for most of her life, she served her time, and according to her critics, that will never be good enough.

Speaker: Andrea Dunlop:

Javier: Here's my friend Andrew Barbari again. Andrew is not a fan of Gypsy.

Javier Real: How do you feel about the Menendez brothers?

Speaker: Andrew real: The Menendez. Okay. I

Javier Real: mean, isn't that the same thing? Yeah.

Speaker: Andrew real: Yeah, I gue- It, it is, but in a way of-

Javier Real: They're- They're still- they're better looking?

Speaker: Andrew real: Well, uh, they're better looking. Andrew real: But no, no. I'm just kidding. But no. No, but they're still serving time, and, like, they're still... I mean, like, again, they, they plotted it, they planned it, they did it, right? Um, but again, knowing that they're, they also had that trauma of abuse and that it sounds like that their, you know, father was molesting or doing sexual things to them and their mother was complacent, like, that does trigger, I'm sure, something in anybody to have really irrational, like, a, you know, anger, not knowing how to take care of it, or feeling like you can't quite get out of it.

Javier: Andrew agrees that the media and Hollywood have glamorized the Menendez brothers, but he sees one big difference. I still feel like they're serving their time, and they're still stuck in, in the system But Gypsy is free

Speaker: Andrew real: The social media, the sponsors, the shows, the TVs, the interviews. Andrew real: Like, we're- she's still, like, profiting and benefiting off of, like, a brutal crime.

Javier: But, but all these people have a following. Mm-hmm. I guess that's my, my next question is that these people have been accusing you- Mm ... of profiting off of the murder of your mother-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: right? Of making a career out of it.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Right.

Javier: Um, but the same could be said for them, right?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Correct. Um, and I think, you know, now in the last few months, I think a lot of people that were doing the same thing that, you know, Audrey is doing and Becca's doing, they were doing it two years ago, have a- actually finally started to come around and is like, "Okay, can we all just stop with the BS? They're, we are harassing and bullying this woman- In the name of making money

Javier: Wait, you're saying they're coming to this

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: realization? Yes, they're coming to the, this realization. So we have creators that were big in the anti-Gypsy community back two years ago, and they have flipped now.

Javier: Oh, really?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And they are, you know, I'm not gonna say they're pro-Gypsy-

Javier: No, but they're like, they-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: But they're neutral. They, they understand that the-

Javier: The irony,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: right? The... Yeah, no. They understand that the goal here was for clicks and views.

Javier: I think Gypsy is talking about this guy.

Speaker: Sir morbid x: We rule the gyverse that we created. We're gonna dismantle it, Sir morbid x: His story is after the break. Sir morbid x: We're the OGs when it comes to everything, especially when it comes to the stupid Jipverse 'cause it's pretty stupid, right? Sir morbid x: This is Sir Morbid X, a YouTuber who hosts true crime livestreams.

Javier: So tell me, like, at one point, the way I understand it was you were kind of anti-Gypsy at one point, right?

Sir Morbid: Uh- Or- Yeah, so when I started, when she got released, so a month or two, two months after she was released, uh, I caught wind, "Oh, she got released." So I, like, I'm a huge- Yeah ... true crime fanatic. I've always been into true crime.

Javier: Sir Morbid X started out firmly on the anti-Gypsy side. He grew his audience by going after her, covering things like the copyright strikes creators say she filed to get their videos taken down, and bringing Gypsy skeptics onto his panel.

Sir Morbid: I went after her pretty hard, um, with the, um, the put downs. Because it was more of a l- like an entertainment sort of show, which I do, you know? My position, it's actually still the same. It's, it's really never changed. That's the weird thing is the anti-community wants to, uh, pin you and pit you as like, um, put you in that, that category of, oh, you must be pro, uh, Gypsy now or a pro, uh, m- mommy murderer is what they always say, you know? You, you support murder. And, you know, it's just really ridiculous, uh, their, their train of thought.

Javier: what was your opinion, and like, what is your opinion now?

Sir Morbid: Yeah, so as far as the case is concerned, the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, um, I've always felt like she was... You know, she should've been charged with first-degree murder, uh, should've served the same sentence as Nicholas Godejohn, uh, life in prison. that never changed because I, I like to keep it simple when I look at stuff like true crime. So where's the actual problem? Is the problem, you know, she only served eight and a half years of the 10 years that she took the plea deal for? Or is the problem the district attorney's office, the prosecution, that actually gave that, uh, sweet plea deal to her to make sure that Nicholas Godejohn was in prison for the rest of his life as well? So, like, who's the real problem here, you know? So- I

Javier: mean, I think that that's the only reason why people are pissed off, is that if she were serving life sentence like Nick, we probably wouldn't be talking today, right?

Sir Morbid: Well, well of course not, yeah. And, uh, but-

Javier: But, but technically though, justice was served. I mean, it was not to people's satisfaction, but I mean, she served her time. She got a plea deal. I mean, people get plea deals all the time. I just think people are unsatisfied that- At how long she served,

Sir Morbid: right? Oh, exa- exactly. she served her time.

Javier: Then Sir Morbid shocked his fans. He started bringing Gypsy, her partner Ken Urker, and her close friends onto his livestream panels. To his old audience, he'd flipped on the Gypverse he helped create. The strange part is that he still thinks Gypsy should be serving life in prison.

Sir Morbid: I feel like the anti-Gypsy community, they're al- they're so obsessed. Here's the thing. They're, uh, they have this hate bond that they all share together. And b- due to their, uh, obsession and their hate, uh, for one individual, and their anger, they're blinded to reality and, they never achieve anything due to that. Uh, th- there's no prog- uh, progress that they ever make. and that was a real frustrating part of being a part of them.They have this mob mentality, um, this gang stalking sort of style of let's go attack if they don't... You know, you better do the proper research. You better look at the FOIAs. You better look at the medical records. I mean-

Javier: I've read my TikTok comments.

Sir Morbid: Oh, okay. Yeah. why do you need all this, you know? Because they're like, "Well, we gotta expose her for her lies," and all that. But you know what? I'll tell you what- Well, they, they're

Javier: saying she's making money off of this

Sir Morbid: If she's making money off of the crime

Javier: That's, that's what one of their beefs is, right?

Sir Morbid: In an indirect way, you know? Like, she's not making... They're actually making money off of the, the crime.

Javier: Yeah.

Sir Morbid: So the, like

Javier: the

Sir Morbid: hypocrisy you can be.

Javier: Audacious Audrey is one of the loudest anti-Gypsy content creators, and a lot of her videos go after Gypsy's looks.

Audacious Audrey: I wanna talk about something else. Can we talk about this lip? Like, girl, you paid all that money to get your lips done and they the lip job sucks, the hair job sucks,

Javier: I asked Audrey what she thinks about being part of the Gypsy Rose economy. clearly there's an audience for it, right? people are hungry for this kind of stuff. do you have a job, like, outside of this, or

Audrey: do. I two jobs.

Javier: Oh, you have two jobs, wow. But, uh, like I'm sure that there are people that this is what they do for a living, right?

Audrey: Oh, I'm sure

Javier: Yeah. What do you think about that, people making a lot of money off of Gypsy Rose when the criticism is that Gypsy Rose is making money off of the murder? Like, aren't they doing the same thing?

Audrey: No, because they're not the perpetrator

Javier: So like in your world, you see the difference, right?

Audrey: I, I do. I see a very big separation. That would be like being mad that Nancy Grace speaks about Casey Anthony and she's paid to. I don't see a problem with making money off of that. Now- And I'm not throwing shade. I make money off of my podcast, too. I have ads and Patreon supporters. It's now my only income, and it's the only way I can keep this show going. There are real costs involved in making a show like this. I have to pay my editor, Puneeth, and you don't want to know how much I spend on legal bills every year. So I understand making money as a content creator. The difference is that I'm not building my entire career on this one case. This is my last episode of this series, and then I'm moving on. Some of these tabloid creators are milking this case and misleading the public about the facts. Tell me again how Gypsy had cancer? I'm still waiting for the evidence. Alaura and Amber with the Into the Weeds podcast told me that before they covered Gypsy, they were making some money off of their content, but it wasn't much.

Amber: I would only make, like anywhere from 100 to 200 300 before the Gypsy Rose videos came out. I was making $13,000 in one month. Then you take other creators who are on every day making videos or doing lives and different things like that, some of these creators are probably making 15-20 thousand dollars month.

Alaura: I don't think that if you do research on a topic Of work as long as you do it in an ethical way

Speaker: Alaura real: But a lot of the people, Alaura real: everyone's kinda Alaura real: turned into like TMZ gossip and they just talk about, "Oh, Alaura real: Gypsy cut her hair and she's doing this," and they're just Alaura real: bullying bullying, bullying bullying

Amber: Well, and we've gotten to the point where we stepped out of the Gypsy Rose content Mmhmm creation at all. We're not gonna talk about- Oh, really? Yeah. We're not talking about Gypsy- No ... on our channel anymore. The

Speaker: Alaura real: other creators are so toxic and full of drama and hatred, and they've literally

Alaura: tried to destroy people's lives. Like-

Amber: They've tried to take our channel down multiple times ...

Javier: I asked Gypsy what she thinks about all these people making money off of her. She says a lot of what they put out is manufactured rage bait.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: They'll put out the craziest stories, they'll manipulate, you know, anything. Like, even something as simple as, oh, you know, Gypsy went on a picnic and brought her daughter to the aquarium or something, and they'll twist it into something bad or wrong, and something to make the situation look deceptive- Mm-hmm and, and just gross. And s- all in the sake of clicks and views. Mm-hmm. Because they are getting a lot of money. Their accounts are monetized and, and that's how they, they earn livings, honestly- Mm-hmm ... some of these.

Javier: On Tiktok, a creator gets paid somewhere between 40 cents and a dollar for every thousand qualified views. So a video mocking Gypsy's nose that pulls in a million and a half views might earn that creator anywhere from a few hundred dollars to about $1,500. That doesn't sound like much until you're doing it every single day. The real money is in the livestreams on TikTok and YouTube, where fans send virtual gifts, tips, and Super Chats. When you're live for hours every night, the temptation to mock and bully Gypsy is hard to pass up.

Cuntbycarsky: What do you guys think of this Javier guy? What are your thoughts? What are your opinions?

Javier: They're even making money mocking me for covering Gypsy, which is pretty meta He's gay. Uh, gay guy. No, but he sucks. Uh, right when I saw his face, I'm a really good judge of character. Thank you so much for the jewels, Arista. Um, I called it right away. I was like, "This guy's a bitch. This guy's gonna suck. He's not gonna do a good job of actually interviewing or, like, he's gonna be on their side." Thank you so much for the jewels, Bundy. By the way, this guy said his livestream about me was his highest-performing stream ever. You're welcome. The Gypsy economy is real, y'all. Meanwhile, Sir Morbid X, the man who helped build these anti-Gypsy superstars, now wants to tear the whole thing down.

Sir Morbid: Because these are the same people that, that loved me so much when I was really at the beginning of this. My live show, my live streams, uh, when Gypsy came out was the show. It was like the town hall meeting of Gypverse. Uh, anything Gypsy Rose ran through my show, my channel. I platformed all creators. I promoted them If you were anybody in the Gypverse, uh, you would be, you'd be hanging out over there. It was the place to go,

Javier: Even Fancy Macelli told me Sir Morbid was the kingmaker in the Gypverse. he says that I platformed all these people. Is that true?

Fancy: 100%. He bu- he built Becca Scoops. He built Haiti Joyless. He built case studies. He built all these people, all of them,

Javier: Sir Morbid told me he and his panel went live almost every night for a year and a half.

Sir Morbid: And we would spend four to nine hours every night talking- That's insane ... Gyp dip.

Javier: About one case?

Sir Morbid: Yeah. And so it really- I

Javier: mean, I know there's a lot to talk about, but every night, that's-

Sir Morbid: Yeah. I mean, they still do it- ... the revenue was the highest I've ever received covering Gypsy Rose. I think I was like at 6,000 or just a little above per month,

Javier: Then he turned on the anti-Gypsy crowd, and the subscribers and viewers started dropping off. So it would make more sense for me to keep on pandering towards them if I wanted to- Yeah continuously make increased money. ' I never said I was pro Gypsy or now I support her in that sense. I just said- I'm done with the case. There's nothing more to do. when I decided that, hey, I can't obsess over this, I gotta snap out of it. I gotta snap out of this Gypsy Rose thing 'cause it's consuming, uh, and, and in bad ways. ' why do you need the FOIAs? Why do you need the medical stuff? 'Cause it feeds their obsession. Y- it's not gonna prove her any more guilty than she actually is. She's guilty. Right, right. Like I just got off a call with a creator. I'll tell you who it was, it was Audrey. Yeah. And she said, "Well, we need all the medical records." Why the fuck do you need somebody's- Personal medical records. You know, like-

Sir Morbid: Because that's her content ... why? You know? But here, y- you know, th- they wanna just say that she lied and all that. Yeah, we, we know she's a, she lied. I mean- Who cares? Okay, so-

Javier: She lied.

Sir Morbid: But they lied too. Um, but- Yeah ... y- you know, but

Javier: Do you ever feel like you created a monster?

Sir Morbid: Uh, no, because if it wasn't gonna be me, uh, it would be someone else, right? I mean, it was gonna happen eventually. And look at the, uh, look at how they go after people like you and to try to silence you." They say, "Oh, w- d- you know, Gypsy's trying to silence us from the truth of her, you know, her being exposed by, you know, the FOIA videos of medical records." No, no, no. Uh, they get triggered whenever I put that light on them and say, "Hey, look at them. They're, they're just as nasty and gross and even more so. So I'm just calling out all these people, uh, with receipts. I'm not just putting out a bogus little conspiracy theory out there. I'm providing the receipts. I'm, and I'm, I'm keeping, I'm holding them accountable. Actually, they don't have leaders. It's so dysfunctional and chaotic. Ever since I came back- It is ... to this space, um, the Jyp verse has been imploding, and they're going nuts. It's like a

Javier: Medusa.

Sir Morbid: Yeah. With multiple heads. Yeah

Speaker: I'M THE LEADER. AND I'M GOING TO DISMANTLE IT

Sir Morbid: . I'm the leader, actually, now that I think about it. I cr- I say I created the Jyp verse And, uh, and I'm gonna dismantle it.

Javier: Dismantling the Gypverse won't be easy, because there's no one thing to dismantle. The people inside it can't agree on much of anything. Here's Fancy Macelli.

Fancy: You thought that coming to the anti-Gypsy crowd was gonna be easy because you thought we'd all agree, and we don't. We don't agree on anything. The only thing we all agree on is that Gypsy is a con artist and she killed her mom.

Javier: There's a corner of the internet that believes Gypsy really was sick. They say to look at the medical records and her genetic microdeletion. Another corner says Gypsy was never sick at all and made the whole thing up herself. Some people don't believe Munchausen by proxy is even real. And recently I read a Reddit thread claiming that Gypsy is the one with Munchausen by proxy, and that she's doing it to her daughter. There is zero evidence of that. Think about that for a second. If Gypsy was really sick, then she wasn't faking it. If she was faking it, then she wasn't really sick. And if Munchausen by proxy isn't real, then Gypsy can't have it. These theories cancel each other out. The only thing they have in common is that every one of them makes Gypsy the bad guy. Covering this case hasn't made me very popular in the Gypverse, either.

Content Creator: Gypsy's making the Pretend podcast, look like clowns.

Speaker: itsashley: I'm just disappointed in Javier. itsashley: I'm disappointed that Javier has all this fucking evidence. He has all the evidence and the opportunity to sit there and ask Gypsy about all this stuff that she's lied about. He does, he asks her, then he lets her say whatever she's gonna say, and he never confronts her with the evidence, not once.

Javier: I get threatening emails, DMs, you name it. And somehow, those threats are supposed to convince me that they're the credible ones. My interview style isn't meant to be confrontational. My job is to make the person across from me relaxed enough to keep talking. If I go on the attack, they get defensive and shut down, and then nobody learns anything. So I lay out all the views and all the evidence, and I let you decide. I also get threatening emails, DMs, you name it. And somehow, those threats are supposed to convince me that they're the credible ones. We're ten episodes into this thing, so let me ask you. How did you feel about this case coming in, and has your mind changed? I got on a call with longtime PRETEND listener Rebecca Catalfu to ask her the same thing. Before my series, Rebecca was firmly on the anti-Gypsy side.

Rebecca: I went in it, with it as being a empathetic sympathizer. I mean, let this girl live her life and, you know, leave her alone I guess my algorithm hit, I started getting introduced to all these different, uh, creators and their posts, and really truly fell down the rabbit hole with this, um, to the point that I was listening to other podcasts that were making posts about it. It swung me all the way the other direction because I'm taking these people at face value and so I thought I was getting information from reputable people who had done their research because they have this paperwork and they have this

Javier: And so I was really anti-gypsy,

Rebecca: anything that was making fun of her appearance, I discredited because we can't help how we're born, The ones that I were finding credible were more the people that were speaking about the FOIA files that they had filed information for, the medical records that they were actually showing, I was consuming so much TikTok. I'm embarrassed how much TikTok I was consuming. right in the middle of this journey that I was having for a couple months, it was announced that you're gonna be doing this podcast. And I said, "Whoa, okay. This is gonna be really good.

Javier: You were fed this information, but now you know a little bit more, do you still feel the same?

Rebecca: when you had talked about how much money these creators were making off of this horrible incident But then hearing that everything in the med- medical records is historical information reported by Dee Dee.

Javier: Rebecca had whiplash. She started out sympathetic toward Gypsy, then slipped over to the anti-Gypsy side. When my series came out and pointed out the inconsistencies and the misinformation, she swung back. But then came the prison calls. Ugh, those awful prison calls.

Rebecca: I found many of the calls very telling. So then I went a little bit more back to the anti-Gypsy side, especially calls about why she did what she did to her mother. Um, it was a reverse abortion. Um, oh, I didn't have my mother killed so I could have people tell me what to do with my life. I felt sorry for my mother. This was a mercy killing. She had no life.

Javier: I think that back-and-forth is exactly how you're supposed to feel. There's no good guy in this story, and you don't have to pick a side. But how you feel about Gypsy says a lot about how you feel about victims of abuse and what that abuse does to them. We can support them, we can look the other way, or we can mock them for the hand they were dealt. I'm not telling you to stop watching Gypsy content. You do you. Just pay attention to who's feeding you that information. Do the people on your phone screen seem to weigh all the evidence, or are they driven by something else? This part is for the handful of anti-Gypsy creators, because it really is a small group of very loud people. You told me, "Javier, do your research." I did. You said I had to read the FOIA files. I did. You said I had to read the medical records, because it's all in there. I did. Then you asked, "But what about the microdeletion?" So I had an independent genetic counselor, Kira Dineen, look at the genetic results. Then you said I'd only been looking into this for two months, and you've been following this case for years. So I devoted two entire episodes to the prison calls, and that still wasn't enough. I did everything you asked me to do. Look, I don't mind disagreement or a healthy debate, and I've given you plenty of airtime to make your case. I get it. You don't like Gypsy, and that's fair. But not liking Gypsy doesn't mean she wasn't abused. Yes, Gypsy had her mom killed, and she served her time. It's over. Unless she commits another crime, she's not going back to prison. I know I'll never convince you of that. Unless I delivered Gypsy's head on a spike, you would never be satisfied. But not every anti-Gypsy creator is that rigid. Here's Brande with the Dragon's Den YouTube channel.

Brande: I don't wanna be a tragedy pimp. And at this point, every one of them are a tragedy pimp, in my opinion. Tragedy pimp, pimp. P-I-M-P

Javier: I call 'em true crime vultures

Brande: too. They are, they are deliberately making money out of this content and beating a dead horse. I mean, they just won't stop.

Javier: In terms of Gypsy and her behavior now, um, you think that this would ever stop? Do you think that if she-- if, if Gypsy decided today to get off the internet and never show her face again, do you think that, uh, the a-anti-Gypsy community will go away?

Brande: No. No.

Javier: I don't know how you feel, but I, I kinda wish her the best, you know? I wish that she

Brande: I've always wanted for Gypsy, even now, even though I no longer support, um, I've always wanted Gypsy to come out and have a normal, happy life. Have a husband and a family, and go do the things that the rest of us do without the attention, you know?

Javier: I don't know if that's possible though.

Brande: And I don't know that it is anymore

Javier: I don't even think she thinks it's possible

Brande: I don't know that she wants it to be, to be honest. I think she likes the attention. She's always had the attention, and I think she likes it

Javier: Nancy Simpson with The Toll podcast is no fan of Gypsy, but she doesn't wish her any harm.

Speaker: wish her well

Nancy Simpson: love to see her get her life together and do something else that's not around social media and, and thrive. She did her time. She's not going back to prison. we need to let that rest. And in the files and figuring out timelines is a fun little mystery.

Javier: Yeah

Nancy Simpson: I, I do, I wish that she, she could just get it together and be a mom and be a productive person in our society

Javier: I don't know what the future holds for Gypsy, and neither do you. I guess that's what makes this case so fascinating. We're watching her figure out life after prison, and figure out who she really is. What I've learned from the plot to kill her mom, from the prison calls, and from my conversations with her is that Gypsy Rose has always lived in a cage. All of her actions come back to one single thing: nobody was going to stop her from getting out. Now she's out. She got what she wanted. What is she going to do with it? You're obsessed. I'm obsessed. We're all obsessed with Gypsy Rose Blanchard. At the top of this episode, you heard Gypsy talk about how her mother's touch used to comfort her. Near the end of our conversation, I asked her about her mom one more time. To me, this was the most truthful thing Gypsy ever told me.

Speaker: DO YOU LOVE YOUR MOM? DO YOU MISS YOUR MOM?

Javier: "Do you love your mom? Do you miss your mom?"

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I, just loaded. Um, I do love my mom for the early years. I can see the humanity in her. Um, do I miss her? No, not anymore, and that's just being honest. 100%.

Javier: And, and I'm glad you answered honest, because I guess my follow-up question was gonna be, depending on how you answered it- Mm-hmm like, let's say you would have said, "Yeah, I miss her," and-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: is it, is some of this like, some of these answers things that you feel like you're supposed to say?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: In the past, yes. In the past, when I was asked, "Do you miss your mom?" And sometimes I'd say yes, I didn't always feel that to the strongest, and I felt bad for that. Like, I should miss my mom, because biologically she's my mom. But I don't, and I think I'm starting to be okay with that

Javier: That's the end of The Gypsy Rose Obsession. If you're listening on the main feed and want more, I have bonus content on PRETEND+ on Apple Podcasts. I'll also be posting the video version of my Gypsy interview on YouTube. You can find the channel by searching PRETEND podcast on YouTube, or look for my handle, @pretendpod. So you might be asking yourself, what's next for PRETEND? Oh boy, I have a lot of things cooking. There's a new investigation I've been working on for a few years now. I also have updates on the stalker case, LaDonna, and even the Word of Faith Fellowship. As we head into our 10th anniversary, it seems like all the greatest hits are flaring up again. As always, you can contact me at thisispretend.com. It's my new website, so go check it out. I even have some PRETEND merch there for you. If you like the show, text a friend. Do it now so you don't forget, because that's the best way to help the show grow. Another great way to get the word out is to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or a comment on Spotify. If you're a real fan, consider joining Patreon. For $3, less than a latte at Starbucks, you can support the show, get early episodes, and be part of the Discord community. It's really taking off, and we're having great conversations every day. Chances are, if you like this show, you'll like the people who listen to it. And I don't know about you, but at this age it's so hard to make friends. So make a friend and sign up for Patreon. My Patreon supporters also get the opportunity to read the credits. Take it away, Lexi.

Lexi: Hi, I'm Lexi, a pretend Patreon supporter. Today's episode was written and produced by Javier Leva. It was edited by Punith Shenoy with the Podcast Pundits, and theme music by Joe Basile with thechicken.net

Javier: That's all I've got for today. New episodes drop early on PRETEND+ on Apple Podcasts and on Patreon. See you there.