The Gypsy Rose Obsession, Part 2

Speaker: ARRIVING IN LOUSIANA

Javier: I landed in New Orleans and drove straight to Gypsy Rose Blanchard's house. Well. Almost straight. I stopped at a bakery first, picked up some beignets and café au lait, because I'm not an animal. I asked the bakery what they thought of their most famous neighbor.

Speaker: My- Um. My coworkers, they see her at Walmart. They see her at Walmart? Where, where was Gypsy Rose from? I know she grew up around here, but, uh- Oh, cool. Is that like the local celebrity? She's not from our town. Gypsy Rose Blanchard lives in a small town in Louisiana. Less than ten thousand people. The kind of town where everyone knows everyone, everyone knows your business, and apparently everyone runs into Gypsy Rose Blanchard at Walmart. I flew down here to spend the day with Gypsy. I wanted to see her in her element. Where she lives, how she acts when the cameras aren't rolling. If it's all an act, surely I would see some cracks.

Introvo: In today's episode, I'm going to sit down with Gypsy and ask her the questions her critics say she refuses to answer. Every single one of them. I interviewed her for almost three hours. And I'm going to play you every single part of that conversation over the course of this series.

Javier: Today we're focusing on some of the biggest inconsistencies that have emerged since we all learned her story. The private videos. The text messages. The public records that the anti-Gypsy community has been picking apart for years. You're listening to The Gypsy Rose Obsession. I'm Javier Leiva and this is PRETEND.

Speaker: ///AD BREAK///PICKING

Up Gypsyvo: I pulled up to Gypsy's house. And even before she came out to greet me, I had the answer to my first question. Is Gypsy Rose Blanchard getting rich off her mother's murder? If she is, she didn't splurge on a mansion. She rents a unit in a modest fourplex. Nothing spectacular.

Javier: I gotta say, meeting her in person was a little awkward for both of us. The plan was to drive to my Airbnb to do the interview. Thirty minutes deep into the bayou. We made small talk as we drove deeper into the swamp. Past armadillo roadkill. Past a dead baby gator on the side of the road. At one point the water was actually lapping over the road. But it was a beautiful drive. Shrimp boats. Stacks and stacks of crayfish traps. She must have been wondering, "where the heck is this guy taking me?" We finally got to the Airbnb. I turned on the camera and started recording. There was no time to waste. I handed Gypsy my phone and asked her to read the very first line of her memoir, My Time To Stand. Dee Dee Blanchard was 24 years old. She gave life to me. When I was nearly 24 years old, I took life from her Like when did that hit you, that connection?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: That was hard to kind of piece together because For a long time I didn't know my real age. Mm-hmm. And so when you're looking back and you're writing your own story, and you're putting together a memoir, um, these things kinda hit you as you're just kind of learning about your life, and it's kind of like, "Wow, my mom was 24 when she had me." And then when I was 24 is when the crime happened, you know?

Javier: Yeah, and I mean, that's just such an important, like, marker in your life, you know?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm.

Javier: Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I thought was interesting in this book that added a lot more color to the, to the story was your explanation for your breaking point.

Aly: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: THROAT

Surgery Was The Breaking Pointjavier Leiva: But, like, you spell it out very clearly in the book, in the first couple pages, that- Mm-hmm ... your breaking point was your mom wanting you to get, uh, throat surgery.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah, another surgery.

Javier: So t- tell me about that.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah, so, um, it was in Twen- 2015, um, and by that time I had had multiple surgeries, and I was on multiple different medications. Um, and I hit a point that it's like, okay, another upcoming surgery, procedure, and then I start thinking to myself, like, "Is this the rest of my life? Is this..." You know, I've already been cut up. I have scars on my neck from a previous surgery. Um, it's kind of like, at what end? And I started thinking about that, and I started thinking about, you know, if it keeps on like this, like, how much more physically am I going to succumb to what my mother was doing?

Javier: Or is it always gonna be this way?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Or is it always gonna be this way? Is there gonna be something that stops it? And there was no, no end in sight at that time. To be clear, the procedure Gypsy is describing is called a laryngoscopy. It doesn't require any cutting at all. It's essentially a small camera on a tube that passes through the nose or mouth to look at the voice box. No incisions. By 2015 Gypsy was 23 years old and had already been through more surgeries than most people experience in a lifetime. So when a doctor started talking about going anywhere near her throat, it didn't matter what the procedure was technically called. For her, it was the final straw. And so there was that part of me that just felt so desperate to just, like, end it.

Javier: Yeah.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, and it was a big fear. Like, that procedure had struck a fear in me that, like, what happens if my voice is taken? So I talk about that in, in my book. It's kind of like, okay, they're gonna be working around my vocal cords, and it's like, I don't wanna lose my voice, you know? Um-

Voicejavier Leiva: A- and that's such an interesting thing, because did your mom have a problem with your voice?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No. So what had happened with my voice is, a lot of people make fun of me- Yeah but this is my voice. It is a higher pitch. Um, but it was all surrounded around, you know, the swallowing, the breathing. Everything kinda was centered around the voice area, and, um, so the throat area. So we use that definitely, uh, me and my co-authors use that in the book to make that point of how important that was.

Javier: Yeah. But, uh, but you've been criticized. I mean, people- Mm ... say that this is not, like you said, this is not your real voice. Mm-hmm. Um, they make fun of you. I've seen- Yeah ... uh, videos of people making fun of you. I- I've... It's just, like, relentless and I just wonder, how do you feel about your voice?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I, I think I sound like my, um, my great-great-grandmother. She's, um, she has a lot of family. Um, and she lives not far from us, too, but, um, I like my voice. You know? It, it changes based on emotion, so sometimes I'll be like, "What'cha doing?" But, um, you know, I think that's just, that's just who I am. Yeah. It's part of who I am.

Javier: I mean, and that's, that's who... Yeah, you can't help

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: your voice. Yeah. It's just who I am.

Javier: Yeah, yeah. And, and then, and then on top of that, you do have, like, a little bit of a Southern

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: accent, right? A little

Javier: bit. Yeah,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: so. A little bit. It comes out more when I'm around my family.

Javier: Yeah, yeah. You see? It just came out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now here's where it gets complicated. Because the narrative we were all given was that Dee Dee made Gypsy sick. That Gypsy was the victim of one of the most extreme cases of Munchausen by proxy ever documented. But her critics disagree. They say Gypsy wasn't just a passive victim. That she knew more than she let on. That at some point, she chose to play along. There are parts of this story she's never tried to hide. And one of them surprised me.

Drug Addictionjavier Leiva: .So- One of the things in your book that I thought was really interesting was you went into a lot of detail about taking some of your mom's pain k- pain medication, like the oxycodone.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm.

Javier: Um, and I found that really interesting, and even the fact that you would sometimes put it through your feeding tube-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm

Javier: to get a high quicker.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah.

Javier: When did that start?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: So I wanna say it started, like, right after my teeth started being extracted. So they had put me, right after surgery, they put me on a medication called, uh, Roxicet.

Sammy: Mm-hmm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, and it helped with the pain. But then after I started to heal, then I think I was already addicted to it, 'cause it's like, "Okay, now I want that feeling again and again and again." And my mom was on pain medication because we were in a car accident in 2001, and it left her with a bad leg injury. And so she was prescribed, um, oxy- or hydrocodone. Uh, not hydrocodone. You know

Javier: what I'm talking about. Um, uh, yeah. I got it right here. Hy-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: hy- Vi- Vicodin. Vicodin.

Javier: Vicodin.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Vicodin. She was prescribed Vicodin. Um, and so I knew that that would give me probably the same feeling. Mm-hmm. And so I started taking her medication, um, in the placement of that original medication.

Javier: Yeah. And a- what... Like, what age do you think?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, that was probably 16, 17, 18, 19, throughout those years.

Javier: Oh, okay. And did your mom know?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: She knew, um, some of it. She would, you know, crush up a Vicodin for me if I would say I'm in pain. Or, you know, could I have what we would call a cocktail, and it was a Vicodin and a Xanax together.

Javier: Mm-hmm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And mix it up and then put it through my feeding tube. So there would be some times I would ask her for a cocktail, and then there was other times that I went behind her back and took her medication.

Schoolingvo: So let's get into it. This episode is all about the inconsistencies. Gypsy's critics say she's an unreliable narrator because she can never keep her stories straight. Something as simple as did you go to school has spawned so many different answers. Here's a compilation put together by a content creator on TikTok.

Speaker: Growing up, like I missed out on Growing up, like I missed out on all those like milestone moments like going to kindergarten and now- I attended school for one year, kindergarten. And how far did you go in school? Um, about the second grade. You remember going to school? I've never been to school. You never got to go to kindergarten, pre-K? No, sir. Four different answers to the same question.

Javier: Mm-hmm. I, I wanna end there, but I wanna talk about, like, you know, some of your childhood and before we get into the, the haters, you know? Mm-hmm. Back... You know, I would imagine, like, that your childhood could be a blur at moments, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Because especially when you don't even know your own age, right?

Aly: Right at the time, yeah.

Javier: And you kinda lose track of, uh- Yeah ... time. There, you talk about, um, going to only up to preschool. Could you tell me about, like, the education that you did get?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Right. Okay. So by my memory-

Javier: Mm-hmm ...

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I didn't attend, um, any kind of formal education. Um, now when we were writing my memoir, other family members were interviewed, and their accounts of what happened, uh, were taken into account. So per my, one of my aunt's, um, account is that I did go to kindergarten. Um, but then no formal education after kindergarten. So yeah. Yeah.

Javier: So there, there has been some discrepancies about, like, how- Right ... far into the school system?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: E- exactly. And it's just my memory versus the memory- Yeah.

Javier: Do you have any memory of, like, the actual school?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I, I don't have any memory of, of like, going anywhere that was like a school type of thing, no.

Alaura Flowers: She changes her story every other time she talks.

Speaker: That's Alaura Flowers, co-host of Into the Weeds, a podcast she runs with her mother Amber Dietz. Their work on the Gypsy Rose case is what put them on the map. And these ladies have done their homework. When the HBO documentary came out, Gypsy's story felt settled. She was a victim of one of the most extreme cases of medical child abuse ever documented, and as a result had her abuser killed. That was the story. And for a while, most of us weren't questioning it. What nobody anticipated was that after Gypsy walked out of prison and back into the spotlight, a mountain of private videos, text messages, and public records would resurface and put her entire life story into question.

Foia Origins And Processamber: People called some of FOIA videos The Gypstein Files, and it's kind of become a meme online.

Brande: The Gypsy files have taken over social media, and a question I kept asking myself is like, why are there hundreds of videos that are just getting leaked now post Gypsy getting out of prison, where she's legitimately in drag? Like, what are these? When we come back from the break... we're going to dive in to the gystein files.

Ad Breakbrande: The Gypstein Files. So what exactly is in them?

Brande: When Dee Dee Blanchard was murdered in June 2015, law enforcement opened a criminal investigation. That investigation generated a paper trail. And because a crime was committed, a lot of that material became part of the public record. The Gypsyverse calls these the FOIA files, and you'll hear us use that term throughout this series. Technically they're Missouri public records obtained through a state records request, but FOIA stuck and we're going with it. The Into the Weeds podcast submitted a series of those records requests. And what came back would change everything.

Javier: So tell me about the whole FOIA because this is like something lot um reporters do that work in newsrooms not amateur sleuths you know Like I would consider us you know be independent reporters right And and quite an investment And just tell me like how get to that point where you wanted to invest that kind and what did you you were gonna get when You know you don't know You're paying all money but you don't know what you're gonna get right

Alaura Flowers: Yeah so I'm a historian at heart I Found out about Gypsy as I was about to do my podcast So when I started interviewing people and learning more about Gypsy I was like you know I really wanna know what happened So I was like okay what do I do What do I do I did the FOIA I got denied because I asked for the medical records So I did another FOIA request and I got approved for that request So I just wanted a repository of information for people to come to their own conclusions about what happened in the Gypsy Rose case That was it I had no further um intentions other than to make this little project for myself When the files finally arrived, Amber and Alaura had more than a dozen private videos exchanged between Gypsy and Nick during their relationship. Surveillance footage showing Gypsy walking completely unassisted. Full unedited police interrogation videos and transcripts. If Gypsy's case ever went to a full trial, this evidence could have seriously damaged her defense. That took like a year and a half at least for us to get everything in They even got their hands on Gypsy Rose prison emails.

Amber: There's thousands thousands Um she has a whole stack I I got

Speaker: Alaura real: four of these bad

Amber: boys Show the side of it so you can see how big it is

Javier: my And those are small print This is Small teenytiny you have four of those Yes Yeah You see how small that is That's all of her emails and there's four of these that are that big These files were ground breaking because for the first time, we had videos that directly contradicted many of what we believed about this case.

Walkingalaura Flowers: Have you ever seen the video that, it, it's on our channel, um and she's in a pink dress and she's, uh, showing Nick that she can walk for the first time?

Speaker: Let's play a clip.

Gypsy: I wanted to show you something special, something that I haven't showed you before, mainly 'cause I was scared to anyway, this is what I want to show you Gypsy takes a step back and twirls.

Alaura Flowers: But she says to Nick that she had been lying to her mother since she was about seven years old

Gypsy: it's not just you that I'm keeping it a secret from. It's sort of like everybody who knows me. Um, I don't even know how to get started.

Alaura Flowers: She said that she had an operation, had a seizure on the table, and she was paralyzed.

Gypsy: but what they didn't know is that it was tempor- uh, temporary paralysis and not permanent. Um, like by the time I started to get my feeling back in my legs and, um, I had been trying to walk then. But I was too young and I just kept to myself. And throughout the years, um, I tried to tell my mom a few times. And, um, I guess I was just afraid of her not loving me as much as, um, she does if I couldn't walk. You know, I just, I didn't wanna make her sad or, um, lose any love from her. I guess that's the reason why I kept it a secret from her. And so I just kept to myself for a long time until, um, 2011, Now here's what her actual medical records say. During a neurological exam in 2009, Dr. Le Pichon documented zero strength in her lower extremities and noted her legs were weak and floppy. But in that same exam, while Gypsy said she had no sensation below the waist, the doctor noted she flinched when touched lightly on her legs.

Alaura Flowers: And she's like, "Well, what my mom and the doctors didn't know is that it was only temporary paralyzation." And from the age of seven until 2011, she was telling Nick that she was lying to her mom and that she was afraid that her mom would love her less if she was able to walk

Gypsy: mom's kind of in denial in a way. I don't really know because I, I guess it would be too hard to explain to all our friends and everything. And in one thing everyone feels like a liar. And believe me, I would like for people to know the truth, but being as it is, I, I would lose a lot of friends I think. The harder question is what Dee Dee knew and when. There are really only two possibilities. Either Dee Dee genuinely believed Gypsy was paralyzed and had no idea her daughter could walk. Or Dee Dee knew. And used it and played along. Gypsy's silence became part of the control.

Alaura Flowers: Well first of all, it's kind of, it's kind of a hoarder situation. So it would've been kind of hard to get a wheelchair around there. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a little hard. especially in her room, it's a total mess. I don't know how she could have gotten onto her bed, um, without some kind of help. it just doesn't look like a wheelchair's been around in there- Yeah for quite some time. Alaura is referring to the crime scene photos that were part of the public records release. And she's right. That house was not very wheelchair accessible. So she said that her mom, like, eventually caught her walking or something like that- Something that, I remember ... and she had to come clean. Sorry, it's been a minute But, um, she's like, "Oh, you know, uh, I had to come clean and she finally found out that I can walk but I lied to my mom for years and years and years, and she didn't know that I could walk the whole time." Here's what we know from the people around her. Her uncle Claude Pitre Jr. says everyone in the family knew she could walk. That he personally saw Gypsy running, playing, jumping on a trampoline when her mother wasn't looking. Another uncle, Evans Pitre, says Gypsy could walk before she and Dee Dee ever left Louisiana, and that Dee Dee forced her into the wheelchair to scam the system. And here's what makes that even more significant. I have Gypsy's medical imaging from that same period. MRIs of her thoracic, lumbar, and cervical spine from 2000 and 2001. Every single one came back normal. No abnormalities. No evidence of anything that would explain paralysis. So I asked Gypsy to settle this mystery once and for all.

Javier: Yeah. Um, this is not in my list of questions, but I- Mm ... I was curious about your not being able to walk at home. You know, it was- How, like, I know that she was strict in public- Mm-hmm ... but even at home?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Even at home. So the only time that I would walk inside the home is when my mom wasn't there.

Javier: Would, how about getting into bed?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Getting into bed, I would get into bed from chair to bed.

Javier: Like, she would get you- Mm-hmm ... like she would have to carry you, or?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No, she wouldn't have to carry me. Oh, you- I could move myself.

Javier: Okay.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, it was, you know, any time that I shown any kind of, "Hey, I don't need the chair, I don't, am not as sick as what you're saying," she would get very upset.

Sammy: Mm-hmm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And then we would argue for days, and then this is where kind of like the manipulation came in, is where she would, like, take her love away. And then, I talk about this in other documentaries too, where she, we had animals, we had cats, and so she would, like, favor the cat over me, and then just speak to me in such a mean way, and then be overly affectionate to the cat. So I felt like she was taking her love away from me, um, any time that I would show independence or any kind of voice to say, "Hey, this is, this is not right."

Javier: So it was like she was conditioning you- Mm-hmm ... or, like, training you to.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah, yeah. Gypsy told me in our interview that Dee Dee always knew she could walk. And manipulated her into keeping it a secret. But that's not what she told Nick in that video. So after our interview I emailed her asking her to clarify. She says the video has been widely misunderstood. That she wasn't confessing to hiding anything from her mother. She was just trying to explain to Nick that every time she tried to acknowledge she could walk, Dee Dee would get angry and punish her. So she stopped trying. She gave Dee Dee what she wanted to avoid conflict. She calls it coercive control. Going along with Dee Dee's version of reality not because she was complicit, but because it was the only way to survive the day. And honestly, I can see that. Because when you think about it, it's actually a brilliant form of control. Dee Dee made Gypsy hold the secret. Carry the illusion. Made it seem like it was Gypsy's idea. Not hers. That seems far more believable than a child tricking her mother into thinking her legs didn't work.

The Foia Videosgypsy Rose Blanchard: These FOIA videos revealed a side of gypsy she did not want the world to see. They were private videos meant for Nick Godejohn and his eyes only. And she was young. Can you imagine if the world got to watch your videos from your late teens and early 20s? I would be mortified.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: The videos that were recently released in December of lis- this last year, the FOIA videos. Mm-hmm. Um, those were between Nick and I, uh, through the course of our relationship, and a lot of the videos, they are what any couple does in a long-distance relationship. Some is sexual, some is not. Um, those videos, the sexual ones, should not have been released to the public Greene County Sheriff's Department was supposed to redact the nudity. They were supposed to redact, um, anything that had sexual content in it. They did not. They sent a thumb drive with nudity, uh, everything. Here's Alaura with the into the weeds podcast.

Alaura Flowers: Unfortunately we were accidentally sent an explicit

Nudesalaura Flowers: video or two.

Alaura Flowers: Three of

Amber: them.

Alaura Flowers: Three explicit videos Um but the one that I'm thinking of is a 40-minute long video where she is completely nude in the middle of the living room The phone's going off. There's a laundry or there's,

Amber: to

Alaura Flowers: you can hear like laundry in the background and everything. 40 whole minutes or more, and i- and there's multiple occasions where things similar to that happen. But for her to just feel so comfortable to be in the middle of the living room, I, I don't do that. You know what I mean? Um, naked and just doing all this stuff like she's not gonna get caught and it's not a big deal and um, or her even being in Dee Dee's bed and being sexually explicit.

Amber: And naked.

Alaura Flowers: And naked in Dee Dee's bed

Speaker: REPORTED

Naked Videos To Green Countyalaura Flowers: we will not show Gypsy's naked body. We have never sent that video around to

Alaura Flowers: anybody We will not send that video around to anybody and people are actually very mad that she contacted Green County after we got those explicit videos because we were initially told that all of the explicit videos would be redacted The Into the weeds podcast never published the explicit videos. Unfortunately, other people have requested those same files and it's out there. Gypsy and Nick built an entire world together online. A fantasy world where Gypsy played a vampire slave named Demona. And Nick was her master. And in that world, they said things that, pulled out of context and dropped on TikTok, would alarm any parent. Any social worker. Anyone.

Speaker: It is your one and only Demona, your slave forever and ever. Um, well, today is our happy one-year anniversary, Gypsy is on camera wearing a big curly brown wig and a red dress. what makes us so unique from other couples is that you and me have a vampire and human relationship, SLAVE &

Masterjavier Leiva: It would give them pause, right? Mm-hmm. And it was, uh, a lot of the role playing that you did with Nick- Mm-hmm ... right, that later was revealed. Mm-hmm. And talk to me about that world because, you know, I've reported on people who, um, who have, um, you know, n- not necrophilia, but, uh, the death fetish world. There's people that do, uh, role playing, and it's all fantasy, right?

Javier: Mm-hmm. And it's, it's centered a- around the macabre and, um, s- for some people it's easy to d- understand the distinction- Mm-hmm ... and then for people who are not in that world- Mm-hmm ... it just seems like very bizarre.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm.

Javier: Uh, w- tell me about just the role playing and, that you had with him. Who introduced that?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, so Nick introduced it. So, um, I actually, I logged into the old Facebook account. Do you wanna see some of it?

Javier: Yeah. Breaking news.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah. All right. So I, I don't know how, like- I- ... deep you wanna go into this stuff. Gypsy pulled out her phone and logged into an old Facebook account where she and Nick interacted. She showed me post after post of cartoon erotica. Oh, I- So there was a lot of, um-

Javier: And this is E- Emma Rose is-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Emma Rose was my account that I was using at the time.

Javier: Mm-hmm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: So Nick would send me all of, like, these, um- E- ... memes and stuff like this. And this is

Javier: him publicly sharing it with you? Or no, I guess just with your friends.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes. '

Javier: Cause this is Facebook.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes, this is Facebook.

Javier: Okay.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: So a lot- So a lot- This

Javier: is back in 2015.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes, back in 2015. So it goes on So

Javier: he would send me these memes ... so, it, it, so a lot of daddy stuff and like-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm ...

Javier: uh, bondage, right? Mm-hmm. So the, the, what does that say? It's like, "She was his lifeline, he was her sanity," and there's a woman with like a choke collar.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So like, I, I mean, he would send me all these, and it goes on and on and on.

Javier: Yeah.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um-

Javier: So, so this was definitely, from what you're showing me- Mm-hmm ... this is hi- this is what he got off on.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes, yes. This was his, his fetish. Mm-hmm. Like, this was his thing. And I'm not kink shaming or anything like that. No. You know what I'm saying? This is just, you know, this is something that he wanted in the relationship.

Javier: Mm-hmm. And th- and this is your first relationship.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes.

Javier: So I, I mean, it's kinda like- And it just goes on and on ... learning how to drive and then going to the Autobahn, right?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's

Javier: just like- Because it's like, uh, like that's like hardcore shit.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah. It's- Yeah ... it's definitely not something that, um... You know, I, I'm probably sure I've heard of like, "Oh, well, you're top dog," or something like that. Mm-hmm. Something very minor of it.

Javier: Mm-hmm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, but like role play for me was like, "Oh, okay, uh, dress up as a prince- Mm-hmm ... and a princess." Whereas role play for him was this dominant, submissive-

Javier: Right ...

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: thing. So.

Javier: Yeah. When I asked Gypsy about the bondage and S&M dynamic with Nick, she was clear. That was Nick's thing. He introduced it. But then there's Dan Glidewell. The man Gypsy met at VisionCon four years before Nick ever came into the picture. Dan testified under oath at Nick's post-conviction hearing in 2022. And what he described was a relationship that started as a friendship and evolved into something more. They video chatted. They exchanged explicit videos. She sent nude photos. She dressed up in costumes. She used fictitious character names. Dan described Gypsy as shy and timid. But then the defense asked him about the power exchange dynamic. Whether it was something he introduced. Whether it was something he asked for. His answer was no. "If I'm being honest, I developed a taste for it from her." Nick introduced it. That's what she told me. Dan says otherwise. Under oath.

Demona Videojavier Leiva: I mean, that answers my question as to whose fantasies you were playing. Mm-hmm. But, but you gave into that- Mm-hmm ... in the relationship, right? Mm-hmm. And you had different personas that you played- Mm ... according to your book, right? Yeah. 'Cause I, I know about Demona- Mm-hmm ... or Demona. How do you say

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: it? Demona.

Javier: Demona. Yeah. Yeah. But then there were other ones, right?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yeah, there was like a Kitty and Candy and stuff like this, and it like, it became where, you know, he, he had different multiple personalities, so it's like I made some up too to like match them. I was like matchmaking with these alternate personalities. Um, so yeah.

Javier: And I, and I guess you know where this is going, right? This is going to the Demona video. Mm-hmm. And now And now we don't need to talk about like the- Mm ... the graphic part of the

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: video.

Javier: Yeah.

Speaker: I know that we want hopefully lots of children, if we have a boy first, um, we're gonna protect him and, um, protect our children from the outside world because they can't know about us. They can't know about, um, you being a vampire. Um, but we're gonna protect them and keep them Keep them educated on what not to say in front of people and make sure that they understand the severity of keeping this secret. I'm going to pause here. "Protect our children from the outside world." It's interesting, the parallels to the dynamic between Gypsy and her mom Dee Dee. Dee Dee kept their secret about Gypsy's real health from the outside world too. But that's not the part I want you to hear. Let's play the tape. And, um, if we have a girl, um, the way it has to be is if we have a girl, she has to lose her virginity to you because you are the master of the household. So, um, I'm gonna have to explain that to her whenever she comes of age where it's time to explain it. Other than that, um, like when she's seven, I won't explain that, but around 13 I'll explain.

Javier: But in the, in the video, um, you do offer up th- this imaginary child that you have together. Mm-hmm. Like on her thir- 13th birthday- Mm-hmm or something like that, and you offer it up, up to him, right? Help people understand that are not in that world what, like, what was reality versus what was fantasy? Like, Like, try to- It- How, how do you explain that?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Okay. Well, Nick, um, had instructed me to make certain videos. Mm-hmm. Certain videos were replying to certain versions of his personalities. Or, or whatever. None of that existed in our relationship. So, um, these videos were a product of scripts that he would give me, "Say this, wear this." I'm about to play you one of many videos Nick sent Gypsy. In this video, it does seem like he's instructing her to include certain elements in her videos back to him.

Nick Godejohn: Hi Gypsy and Dimona. I forgot to add one thing to that video, and I'm gonna make this a separate video, but it's still about the other one that you both are to make. Gypsy, you do have some things expected to wear, so do you, Dimona. You wonder what it is, don't you?

Javier: Nick's videos are bizarre and not each to understand. But pay attention to how he's talking. It seems like he's giving her specific instructions?

Nick Godejohn: And I did give Gypsy a lot to remember, then I gave Dimona, I suppose, a good amount to remember too. So, you have a lot to remember. If you have to listen to it in your ear-- Yes, your earpieces, while you're-- have it plugged into your laptop, and you write down each topic, just remember them all. Just so you make sure you please me. Then make sure you do that. I'm serious. You want me to be pleased. You want him to be reassured. You do that. The same thing with you, Dimona. You want to write down the topics I mentioned for you. You do the same. The only reason you might have to do foursomes is because I am known to be the most sexual one out of us all.

Javier: Now. Before you spiral. Here's how I think about this. Gypsy grew up completely isolated. She had no friends. She didn't go to school. She had no normal frame of reference for what relationships are supposed to look like. Whatever she knew about sex and intimacy, she learned from the internet. And we all know what the internet teaches kids about sex. Girls being choked. Pain dressed up as passion. In my view, that's what she had to work with. She also knew she needed help to get out. She needed someone willing to come get her. And she knew what men wanted. Dark, intense, violent sex. So the question isn't whether Gypsy introduced that dynamic to Dan and later to Nick because she liked it or because that was her kink. The question is whether she believed it was the price of her freedom. But what I can tell you is that this dynamic becomes a thread that runs through this entire story. Right up to the night of the murder on June 9th, 2015. Sex and escape. In Gypsy's world, they were completely tangled together. Next time on PRETEND.... Before the murder... Gypsy and Dee Dee's relationship was spinning out of control.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: She came at me and I got scared, and there was a BB gun on the table, um, kitchen table, and I grabbed it out of fear and I released the BBs at her.

Javier: That's not the act of someone running the show. That's the act of someone trying to escape.

Brande: She created her own murderer.

Sheriff Arnott: She has turned into her mom. She is, she is doing the manipulation.

Nancy Simpson: I truly believe that Nick would not be in prison for murder today had Gypsy not manipulated and worked him for two and a half years.

Javier: That's next time on PRETEND