The Gypsy Rose Obsession, Part 7

Javier: Before we start — a heads up about this one. You're going to hear recordings of prison phone calls that were released by the state of Missouri. They contain racist language, including racial slurs, spoken by people who did not expect anyone outside the prison to hear them. There's also discussion of child abuse, sexual content involving a child, murder, and self-harm.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Hey, this is Gypsy ... an s offender at the Chillicothe Correctional Center.

Javier: Gypsy Rose Blanchard is by far the most high-profile inmate Chillicothe Correctional Center has ever seen. Coming in a distant second is Pam Hupp the subject of NBC's The Thing About Pam. No other inmate has achieved the global reach, viral fascination, or ongoing media presence of Gypse Rose Blanchard. Gypsy served the majority of her setence at Chillicothe in Missouri. During that time, Gypsy made lots of phone calls. Seven years and half years worth of phone calls, to be exact. Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall and listen in? What would she say? Would she let her gaurd down and let the truth come out? Wonder no more.

Content Creator: Gypsy Rose Blanchard's prison phone calls have leaked and they're bad. I mean, really bad.

Content Creators: More of Gypsy Rose's prison calls were leaked. This time, her and Ryan were calling Mia, her sister's boyfriend, the N-word.

Content Creator: A bunch of prison phone calls have just been released, bragging about how rich and famous she's going to be off of the unaliving,

Content Creators: I feel like every time prison calls get leaked from her, it just gets worse.

Content Creator: Gypsy Rose Blanchard is done.

Javier: A content creator emailed the state of Missouri and asked for seven years of somebody's private phone calls. She didn't give her real name. She signed the request "Not your business." Four days later, the state sent her the audio. What's on it is seven years of Gypsy Rose Blanchard with her guard down. You're listening to The Gypsy Rose Obsession. I'm Javier leiva and this is PRETEND.... Stories about real people pretending to be someone else.

Prison Call: This call is from a correctional facility and may be monitored and recorded.

Michelle Dean: It's Gypsy, right?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: It is. Hi.

Michelle Dean: Hi. It's, it's nice to actually t- talk to you after so much time spent thinking about you.

Javier: Everyone knows these prison calls aren't exactly private. That message plays every few minutes to remind everyone on the call that they're being recorded. So you would think, that you would be careful about what you say. But at this point, Gypsy had already accepted her plea deal. And should could never be tried again for the same crime. So she let her gaurd down. Afterall, these calls will never see the light of day. Prison phone calls are generally not public records that anyone could requst through open-records requests. I know I've tried to obstain prison calls on other cases and got shut down fast. Typically, the only way you can get these calls is if the calls are entered into evidence, like in HBO The Jinx season two. Great doc btw. Or you can get them if the inmate authorizes the releacy. But apparently that's not the case in the state of Missouri.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: My plans are while I'm here, you know, make the most of it. Um, I plan on getting my GED because, um, my mom didn't really put me in school or, you know, really homeschool me. I think I might write a book, um, you know, work on it while I'm in here since I have a lot of time to do that.

Javier: Most of these calls or benign. Gypsy calling friends and family, updating them about her life in prison. But many of these calls are... wow, just wow.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I think it's made perfectly clear the fact that I'm on a fucking murder charge I'm gonna do what the fuck I wanna do. I didn't fucking get my own fucking mother murdered just so I could live for everybody else. Okay?

Javier: Before the prison calls were released, the gypsy skeptics were trying stitch together a tapestry and trying to recreate what really happened... but they only had some of pieces... gypsy's recounting of events which were known to change every time she told them. They also had the evidence from the FOIA files...text messages, and video messages sent to Nick Godejohn. But they were missing a critical part of the story... that is until they got their hands on her prison emails through a public records request. Here is Gypsy at the time reacting to the release of the emails.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I'm not tripping over the emails. I was in my 20s. I mean, how would everybody else feel if their personal diary was released to the public? I'm sure we've all done embarrassing things that we regret, but like I said, I was in my 20s. I'm not the same like I was back then. I did some stupid stuff, yes. Do I do stupid stuff now? Yes.

Javier: There are over 1,000 pages of Gypsy Rose Blanchard's emails. But nobody reads emails. But then, just this August, the prison calls were released. And now, they're all over tiktok.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: but I'm in prison for doing a reverse abortion. My body, my choice, and murdered my mom so I can protect my body. So where's that vote?

Javier: I've spoken with the content creator who requested these prison calls through the State of Missouri sunshine laws. She didn't have to sue the state for these calls. All she had to do was ask. This person didn't even use her own name when she requested the records. She signed it "Not your business." And the Missouri Department of Corrections, didn't even hesistate. Four days later, she recieved a dropbox link with all of the audio files.

Speaker: Mike Stanfield - Gypsy's Attorney: Hey. Hey. How are you? Okay. Mike Stanfield - Gypsy's Attorney: So, ugh, busy. How are you? Uh,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I could be better.

Javier: That's Gypsy on the phone with her lawyer.

Speaker: Mike Stanfield - Gypsy's Attorney: Well, uh, I just wanted to talk to you real quick just so you know what's going on since it's your stuff.

Javier: Mike Stanfield represented her in the murder case. Those calls are supposed to be protected. Attorney-client privilege. And Missouri handed them over with everything else. I wrote the Department of Corrections about it a month ago. Nobody's written back. There are hours and hours of these calls. And ever since they landed, they've been coming out daily. One at a time. Each one seeming worse than the last. Gypsy knew what was coming. Before any of it went public, she told me what was on them. She was writing to multiple guys. There was phone sex. She talked about people behind their backs. She told me she wasn't worried about that part. What she was worried about was everybody else. She texted me, "It's like releasing someone's iPhone messages or call logs." Her argument is that the recordings exist so staff can play them back if something goes wrong. Not so they can end up on TikTok. She knows she had no privacy in prison. She's not arguing that. She's arguing about the person on the other end of the line. The producer who told her something personal about her own life. Missouri handed all of it to a stranger. No notice. No chance to object. And for what it's worth, she would have won that argument in Florida, where a court decided these calls aren't public records at all. So in Missouri, it's a free-for-all. Which, if you make a true crime podcast for a living, is fantastic news. But I wasn't ready for these calls. I had already produced three episode before they were released. My podcast about Gypsy Rose seemed out of date before it came out. But these calls are not all bombshells. A lot of it is just Gypsy talking. Here's a call with the journalist Michelle Dean.

Michelle Dean: Do you think that she really thought you were sick?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I think she did. Honestly, in her mind, I think she did.

Michelle Dean: Yeah.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Because she... You know, my hand fell asleep one time and, um, she had said, "Oh my God, your muscular dystrophy is getting worse." You know? But my hand just fell asleep. You know, it's just little things like that. It was like it would get blown up in her mind.

Javier: Here's a call with Gypsy's step mom Kristy after Gypsy spent two weeks in solitary confinment.

Kristy Blanchard: Hey, girl

Securus Operator: What? I'm in general population. Awesome. That's great. I got to walk outside. There's a track, there's a gym. I went out in the sun. I think my nose is sunburnt.

Kristy Blanchard: Really? Yeah. It was so

Securus Operator: nice.

Speaker: Oncology dental

Javier: Most calls are like this... pretty uneventful. They really have to dig to find the good stuff. And when find it, they sign from the rooftops. Here's a content creator reacting to one of the newly released prision calls.

Speaker: TikTok Snitch - Content Creator: This one is absolutely crazy. Gypsy Rose calls Christy crying her eyes out that her partial dentures are broken.

Kristy Blanchard: Hey, boo boo What?

Gypsy: I broke my top partial. Oh, no. It was an accident.

Javier: In this call, Gypsy is telling her step mother Kristy that she broke her denture and needs it replaced.

Kristy Blanchard: Who, who made yours?

Gypsy: Um, UMKC in, uh, Kansas City. It's a university- I wonder- ... dental school. It's an oncology dental. They wouldn't take me now that, um, I'm not, I'm not a cancer patient.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I'm not taking a survey

Javier: Gypsy said, they would not take me now that I'm not a cancer patient. And that's all the content creators needed. Because think about what that sentence implies. Not a cancer patient now. Which means at some point, she was one. And the UMKC dental school isn't a walk-in clinic. You need a referral from a cancer clinic to get through the door. So how does a girl who never had cancer end up in an oncology dental program? They say, aha. That's the smoking gun. It is a smoking gun. But they might be holding it backwards. What if this is not evidence Gypsy had cancer. What if this is just another example of how far Dee Dee's grift actually reached. I've been through the medical records. There's nothing in there about cancer. No diagnosis, no oncologist, no treatment. It's just Dee Dee's word. So I asked Gypsy about it. She told me that while she was fraudulently enrolled in the Angel Flight program out of Kansas City, Dee Dee got friendly with one of the volunteers. A woman who happened to work as a receptionist in that oncology dental office. According to Gypsy, Dee Dee told her about the cancer diagnosis, and the receptionist handled the paperwork. Now. I can't verify a word of that. Dee Dee isn't here to answer for herself. And Gypsy's version of things tends to move around, usually in the direction that helps Gypsy. When we come back from the break... the prison calls reveal the birth of the Gypsy economy. Suddenly, being famous for murder becomes big business for Gypsy and everyone around her.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: When you said that I was famous, I didn't think that I really was, but now I'm reconsidering that.

Javier: That's after the break.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And there's an article that had came out on BuzzFeed.com, and, um, it, like, tells my whole life story from beginning, you know, till now, and it reached six million people. Oh my gosh." Right. That's a lot of people. It's freaking me out. the lady that did the article said that, um, there's been movie people that approached her and people for, like, books and stuff wanting- Mm-hmm ... to do my story. So I can get royalty from there. I can get money from a book and a movie- Mm-hmm ... with actors, just not the documentary. So I'm like, whenever I get out, I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna be driving a Mercedes-Benz- Mm-hmm and I'm gonna have my own home.

Javier: And it wasn't just Gypsy seeing dollar signs. Here's Kristy Blanchard, Gypsy's stepmother, talking to her about documentary offers. Dee Dee's side of the family, the Pitres, had reservations about all of it.

Kristy Blanchard: Yeah, and she was kind of pissed off about the HBO thing, and she was like, "That's just all some money." I'm like, "What y'all don't understand, you don't get paid for documentary." Right. Now, we are, but that's to put to you aside. But I'm not gonna tell anybody that because that's not their business.

Securus Operator: Right.

Kristy Blanchard: That's between us I reached out to one of my cousins that's in the entertainment industry. Mm-hmm. And she's gonna find me a entertainment lawyer.

Securus Operator: Oh, good.

Kristy Blanchard: So you could transfer your, your rights.

Securus Operator: Good. Good.

Kristy Blanchard: So we could make sure you get top-notch for the story because we all know that you can't get paid for it because you were involved. Exactly. But if you sell it to us, they have to.

Securus Operator: That

Kristy Blanchard: y'all can... Exactly. Yeah. We're doing it the smart way.

Securus Operator: Yeah. That's a good idea. 'Cause

Kristy Blanchard: you're gonna need that money-

Securus Operator: Right ...

Kristy Blanchard: when you get out.

Securus Operator: Exactly.

Kristy Blanchard: You could buy you a car, if you wanna buy you a ho- a little house.

Securus Operator: Right. Listen to what they're worried about. There's a thing called a Son of Sam law. Named after the serial killer who started getting book offers from his cell in the seventies. The idea is, you shouldn't get rich off the story of the crime you committed. That money should go to your victims. That's what Kristy means when she says you can't get paid for it because you were involved. So here's the plan. The family sells the story. The family gets the check. Except that law has been falling apart for thirty years. The Supreme Court struck down the original in 1991. First Amendment. State courts have been knocking down similar laws ever since. And it obviously never stopped Gypsy. She sold the TV show. She's been getting paid, out in the open. And it wasn't just the Blanchards looking to monetize Gypsy's newfound fame. Hollywood producers wanted a piece too. Air quotes on producers. Enter Fancy Macelli.

Fancy: hello? Hi,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: this is Gypsy.

Fancy: Hi, Gypsy. How are you? Hi,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I'm doing good. How are you doing?

Fancy: Oh, I'm doing well. Just trying to make it through the day.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Same here.

Javier: Remember Fancy? She's the writer and actress who ended up with the rights to Gypsy's life story. Years later, after the family fired her, she started uploading the case files and medical records on her Patreon. This is their first phone call. Before any of that.

Fancy: I'm basically am a writer and an actress. Um, and I'm really interested in telling your story.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Okay. So- That would be nice. so we've, you know, been approached before.

Fancy: a lot of people are gonna approach you. Um, and a lot of people are gonna offer, you know, outrageous amounts of money and are gonna promise the world and the moon and all these different things to you. but my goal is to tell a truthful story-

Javier: what I can promise is that it's gonna be done with integrity and with truthfulness, and the story that you are wanting told, Integrity and truthfulness. Fancy talks for three straight minutes. Gypsy barely gets a word in. When she finally does, she tells Fancy that somebody else is already working on a show about her life. A journalist named Michelle Dean. That show became the Emmy winning Hulu series... The Act.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Michelle Dean, um, she did- Mm-hmm ... a wonderful arti- article for BuzzFeed.com. Um- Right ... she, she wants to do a, a series on Hulu, and it would, um- Right ... it would be called The Act.

Fancy: That it's a huge role and anybody's gonna wanna do that. But anyone can do that. I, I've done it for other projects. It's not, you know, it's not something-- When somebody says that, what they're trying to do is impress you, and I didn't come at it that way, you know? I didn't wanna come at it and be like, "Well, I can get so and so attached, and I can do..." Because that's, who cares? What this is about is making sure that there's, like I said, integrity in the story,

Speaker: There's that word again. Integrity.

Fancy: I wanna partner with you guys and do this. I don't wanna just come in and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna buy the rights to your story," and you get no say in the matter, and I'm gonna walk away.

Javier: Fancy first approached Gypsy and her family in 2016. Three years go by. Nothing gets made. It's now March 2019. The Act premieres on Hulu. Remember, Michelle Dean's show? It's a huge hit. Two months later, Fancy gets interviewed by In Touch magazine and tells them that her own TV project is still in the works. Gypsy was furious. And we all know how this one ends.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Fat Face got ahold of it and then took us

Ryan: to In Touch. Who,

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: who?

Ryan: Fat Face Francesco. Fat Face? Is that what

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: you called her? Yeah. She's ugly and fat. She's fugly.

Ryan: Oh, Fat Face. Fucking, fucking Fat Face cunt.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Yes. That bitch.

Ryan: Oh, yeah. Man, fucking this is her fourth engagement. What a bitch.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: You know, you know, when I get out, like I'm gonna fuck her world up. You know that, right?

Ryan: How? How?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I can't say over a recording line. I can't

Ryan: say that. I'm gonna tell you right now, you ain't doing nothing to that woman like that. Sorry. We are not going back to prison Oh, come on what? No, you're not going back to prison Do you understand me? Two things about that call. The first is that Fancy forward this prison call to me herself. She feels threatened. The second is that I asked Gypsy about it. Here's her answer by text. She says she talked a lot of shit but never threatened Fancy's life. What she meant was that she'd ruin any chance Fancy had in the industry.

Javier: That's the version of these calls that goes viral. The fights, the threats, the drama.. That's the stuff that clips well. But what I think is facinating about these prison calls are listening to relationships form. For instance, we get to hear the start of Gypsy and Kristy's relationship. Remember, prior to the murder, Gypsy says she rarely got to see her dad and step mom.

Kristy Blanchard: Well, it took us less than a year to, for you and I.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Right, to open up. You know.

Kristy Blanchard: Right. there's some things you won't be able to tell your dad.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Right. It's

Kristy Blanchard: just some things are

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: easier than others. Like, you know, like when you get...

Kristy Blanchard: You know, when you get old, like, when you're gonna get out and you're gonna start dating, and when you're gonna be intimate for the first time.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm. Last

Kristy Blanchard: time you're gonna wanna tell your dad?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: No.

Kristy Blanchard: Yeah, last time you're gonna tell me, and I'm gonna- Right ... be like, "Okay. Well, let's go get you protection if-

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mm-hmm ...

Kristy Blanchard: you know, you want to," Then Mother's Day rolls around... and it's complicated.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Mo- Mother's Day, that's both a, you know, a good holiday and a sad holiday at the same time. 'Cause it's a bad holiday because, you know, obviously she's not here anymore. Right. But

Kristy Blanchard: a

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: good holiday because I get to wish you a Happy Mother's Day, and you're my mom now, you know?

Kristy Blanchard: Yeah.

Javier: We also get to hear other relationships form. Men, one after another, writing to a Gypsy after watching the documentary Mommy Dead and Dearest. One of those prison pen pals was a man named Robert. In this call, Gypsy is talking about not being able to walk in front of her mother.

Robert: So wait, you, you actually did walk in front of her, but she refused to like... She really mad at you?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Um, it was like I wasn't allowed to walk in the house or outside. It was just, um, the times that she was asleep or maybe going to Walmart or something that I'd walk around a little bit. Um, but other than that, I just wasn't allowed to.

Javier: At the time, Gypsy's prison relationships were overlapping, and she was talking to multiple men simultaneously. Another one of those guys was Ken Urker, who will eventually become the father of Gypsy's daughter. This is their first call.

Securus Operator: Hello, this is a free call from 60 Blanchard.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: An offender at the Chillicothe Correctional Center.

Speaker: Securus Operator:

Ken: Hello?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Hi, is this Ken?

Ken: Yes, it is.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Hi, it's Gypsy.

Ken: Hey, Gypsy. How you doing?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I'm doing all right. Um, I got your letter today.

Ken: it's so good to finally, like, hear your voice, you know? Like, I've... It's been, like, a, a couple months since, uh, maybe a month or two since I first wrote you,

Javier: I'll be honest with you. I get sucked into these. I'll sit there and listen to a whole relationship start up, flourish, fall apart. Hours go by. This is the call where Gypsy tells Ken his prison visit got approved.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Hi, my love.

Ken: Hey.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Hey, sweetie. Hold

Ken: on one second. I have

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: good news for you.

Ken: What's that?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Uh, your special visit got approved, so you get to stay- All right ... all Friday.

Ken: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Then we hear them make plans for after she's released from prison.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I was wondering if I could maybe move in with you.

Ken: Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Absolutely. Absolutely. I would love it. I would love it. I would fucking love it. I would fucking love it.

Javier: In October of 2018, Ken goes to see her at Chillicothe, and while he's there, he proposes. She says yes. Ten months later they call the whole thing off. There are so many men on these prison call. It's hard to keep all the names straight. And I can't help but wonder... Who the heck goes looking for a woman in prison? Because that's what all of these guys did. They saw Gypsy on TV, or read about the case, and then sat down and wrote a letter to a woman serving ten years for having her mother killed. That's the pool she was choosing from. One of those dudes was Bryan Golden. Bryan was another prison pen pal and romantic interest whom Gypsy communicated with around 2019. This was during the period when her first engagement to Ken Urker began fracturing and fading.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: Are you still friends with Ken on Facebook? Uh,

Bryan Golden: I don't know. Why? What's wrong?

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And I was like thinking that if you guys were still friends on Facebook, maybe I'd just send him an email saying, "Get the fuck out of my life." So I'm not videoing with you. I'm taking you off my visiting list. I've already deleted every photo, every video, everything from you. If you come around here thinking I'll take you back, I'll just tell you that you should have thought of that when you left me alone. You made it very clear you don't want me in your life, so get the fuck out of mine.

Javier: Amber Deitz from Into the Weeds pointed something out to me, and I think she's right When Gypsy wanted something handled in the outside world that she couldn’t do herself from prison, Bryan seemed to be one of the people she trusted most to handle it. He had access to information and accounts, knew what was happening in her personal life, and was willing to act on her behalf. Well little did Gypsy know but her boyfriend Bryan had a few skeletons in his closet.

Speaker: Brian Golden of Swansea walking into a Fall River courtroom Thursday prosecutors say the Massachusetts State Police Cyber Crime Unit found that Golden downloaded multiple pornographic videos of victims believed to be as young as five years old.

Javier: Bryan Golden was arrested in February 2026 on charges of possessing child pornography and multiple firearm violations. Like I said, there were lots of men floating in and out of Gypsy's prison life. But this last pen pal, Ryan Anderson, was the lucky guy who ended marrying her.

Ryan Anderson: And don't forget about your hubby. Mwah. I love you. Mwah, mwah, mwah. Love you too, baby, so much. Mm-hmm. Talk to you soon. We've heard some nasty calls in this episode. And I want you to know I held back. Not because I'm squeamish. Because the point of this series isn't to embarrass people. It's to understand one. Part eight is where I stop holding back. Because the calls between Gypsy and Ryan Anderson are probably the most shocking of them all. Next time on PRETEND... these prison calls are about to get real ugly. Oh, baby. My baby is a racist.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: I am not. I'm just stating

Ryan Anderson: the obvious. It's saying, you said, "These Black niggers." It's like a double negative. Oh. Like you, like you'd say, "These yellow Chinese."

Javier: Gypsy Rose Blanchard is caught making racist comments over multiple calls. And then there's the chilling calls about the murder.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard: And thinking about the murder, I almost felt like I would be doing her a service because I don't think that she ever had the gut or the, I don't know, the drive to kill herself. I don't think she ever would kill herself. But I think at some point in her life, she wanted to die. That's next time on PRETEND.

Speaker: show notes

Javier: These prison calls are pretty heavy so I thought it would be best to break them up into two episodes. I've listened to a lot of calls. And I'm sure I missed some. And now, while writing this episode, someone requested Nick Godejohn's prison calls too. Now there are even more calls to sift through. I'm doing my best folks. So if you feel I missed an important call, tag me on social media. I'm working my way through them. Part 8 is available right now. So head on over to PRETEND+ on Apple Podcast or Patreon to listen to it. I also want to tell you about something new in our Patreon community. because it's grown into something I'm really proud of. Supporters get access to bonus episodes, early access to new content, and now a private Discord server where we actually talk in real time. Case theories, episode discussion, live video calls with me. It's a real community of people who care about the same things you do. If that sounds like your kind of thing, head to thisispretend.com and you'll find the link to our Patreon right there. Tiers start at three dollars a month.

Speaker: Hi, I'm Beau Hale, End to Pretend Patreon supporter. Today's episode was written and produced by Javier Leva. It was edited by Punit Shenoy with the Podcast Pundits and theme music by Joe Basile with thechicken.net.

Javier: Before we go, there's somebody I want to introduce you to. His name is Javier Leiva. No, not me, the other Javier Leiva You guys have no idea how important this other Javier Leva is, because I don't know him, but he receives a lot of emails that are meant to go to me. A lot of tips, big story breaks, and he forwards them all to me because he happened to buy the domain name javierleva.com before I did. And we've been talking for years, and we formed this amazing friendship, and I want to introduce you to the other Javier Leva. Here's our conversation it's so nice to meet you. Yeah. I mean, seriously, like it's... How many years? I wanna see, I don't even know when the first time we ever talked, but-

The Other Javier Leiva: I don't know. I think it was on Twitter probably, uh- Yeah at some point. I don't know. It's so fun. I mean, yeah.

Javier: I, I'm glad you think it's fun because I also just was wondering if it's, like, really annoying actually, but- Oh,

The Other Javier Leiva: no. Not at all. It's

Javier: not.

The Other Javier Leiva: No. I, it, it's super fun. I mean, every time I get an ema- I mean, r- that's aside, but, but what, what has happened lately with emails, it's so much fun to me. It's like,

Javier: uh- That is so funny. Yeah.

The Other Javier Leiva: Yeah.

Javier: So the thing that my audience doesn't understand is that you sometimes receive the biggest tips because your URL is javierleiva.com. Right. And everybody thinks that, that you are me.

The Other Javier Leiva: Right.

Javier: And th- what, one of your most recent emails that you forwarded me was a huge tip. You have no idea. It was like this story that I've worked on for years. Yeah. And I had no idea- Yeah, I

The Other Javier Leiva: remember that one ...

Javier: I had no idea. Unless you would've emailed me, I, I would've- Yeah ... had no clue.

The Other Javier Leiva: That's super fun to me. So- So I don't have any issues with, uh, continuing being your assistant every time- Oh. ... it's needed. So it's like... It's, it's funny because, um, I remember at the beginning- I was super all around in the internet, right?

Javier: Yeah.

The Other Javier Leiva: And then I'm not there anymore. Uh, and now I- I'm sorry

Javier: about that ...

The Other Javier Leiva: I, no, but it's, it's a, it's a, it's not because of you. It's, it's also a choice of me.I changed directions and it's fun because it keeps me connected in a way, so sometimes, uh, I get something for you- ... and it's like a highlight of my day, to be honest. I

Javier: think it's funny 'cause we're not the only Javier Levas. There's other- I know ... Javier Levas. There's a professor, I think he's from Canada. A very successful Javier Levas.

The Other Javier Leiva: Right.

Javier: We're, we're doing a good job. Well, and the, the thing is that we're not like John Smith, right? You know? Right. Yeah. We're, yeah, yeah. So, okay. Yeah. I've been dying to meet you because I actually looked at my email, and we started talking in... Our first email's in 2024, which I thought it would w- was longer than that. But, um, I-

The Other Javier Leiva: It was, it was before that on, on another- Yeah ... platform

Javier: first. It must have been. It must have been. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, uh, I, I've always been curious about you. You're, you work in, uh, you're like a m- a librarian for medical things? Like, kind of explain what you do.

The Other Javier Leiva: Yes. I'm a librarian. I studied library sciences.

Speaker: /END

The Other Javier Leiva: I moved to the US. I'm originally from Catalonia. You will notice my accent is not- Yeah, yeah ... super smooth. Uh- I

Javier: think

The Other Javier Leiva: it's great. And, and I, when I moved here, I started w- so I had not worked as a librarian for a long time. I was working for libraries and librarians. Um, but then I, yeah, I, I started a job as a medical librarian, and that's what I do. So, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

Javier: Well, that's another thing we have in common, 'cause one of my first jobs was as a library page. And I know- Oh, yeah? ... my Dewey Decimal System.

The Other Javier Leiva: Oh, yeah? That's, that's fun.

Javier: Do they still use that? Like, even in a medical library, th- still the Dewey Decimal System?

The Other Javier Leiva: No, they-

Javier: No?

The Other Javier Leiva: We use the, the one from the, the National Library of Medicine. Ah. Uh, public libraries use, use it, use, use it, I think.

Javier: Ah, all

The Other Javier Leiva: right. Uh, in Europe we use a different one. Uh- Oh, really? But, uh, yeah.

Speaker: #KEEP FOR BONUS

Javier: the reason why I wanted to do this was, A, because I've always wanted to meet you, and then, B, 'cause my website got hacked, I wanna say almost two years ago. Mm-hmm. And I've just been so busy because I've been working a full-time job and doing the podcast that I haven't had time to- Yes work on my website. And then, like, the whole AI thing came out, and then it seems like having a website is not even that important anymore because, like, everybody's just doing AI search. Right. So I kind of, I kinda just put it on the back burner and didn't do anything. But I, I felt so bad. I was like, "This guy's getting all my emails." So you- I mean, it's

The Other Javier Leiva: ha- You, you did it for me.

Javier: So I finally have a brand-new website. Um, it's called thisispretend.com, and it has a tip page where people, if they wanna send tips, leave the other Javier Leiva alone. Uh, it sounds like he likes it, but, but, uh- ... if you wanna get to- Yeah ... the right Javier Leiva-

The Other Javier Leiva: Right

Javier: go to thisispretend.com- Yeah ... and send me a tip. Exactly. Lis- Or send us both a tip, you know?

The Other Javier Leiva: Li- listen to that Javier Leiva. Uh, and if not, I will forward it, no problem.

Javier: Yeah, no, but it, it's awesome. And, um, thank you for, for doing this. but I just think- Okay ... it's so cool because it's like this, uh, doppelganger. I guess, like, if you have a common name, it's not that cool, but for me it's cool because I've never met another Javier Leiva.

The Other Javier Leiva: Right.

Javier: Yeah.

The Other Javier Leiva: Yeah, no, me neither. Uh, you, you're the first one. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's fun, and, and it's like two Javier Leiva universes just collided now. Uh, so- Yeah,

Javier: we gotta get the rest of them because there's a couple more out there. We'll start a, like a club or something.

The Other Javier Leiva: Right. Yeah.

Speaker: /END keep for bonus

Javier: Yeah. Hey, look, you sound cooler than me. You look cooler than me. You are, like, the better Javier Leiva, man.

The Other Javier Leiva: Yeah, well, I, we, we- ... w- I don't know if we will agree on that. We'll... But anyway, I appreciate it. Oh,

Javier: but, well, dude, thank you. This was fun, man. I, I just- Amen, yeah ... wanted to do this. It was an excuse just to, to talk with you- Yeah ... 'cause we've been corresponding through email for so many years. I

The Other Javier Leiva: loved, I loved it. Thank you so much. Yeah. And as I said, hey, let's keep in touch. I'm a libr- a librarian, so, and I, I, the, the part that I love more about my work is just the research part, when there's something I cannot find and I have to go-

Javier: Yeah

The Other Javier Leiva: you know? Um-

Javier: So maybe we're not that different after all.

The Other Javier Leiva: I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think so. Uh- I, I, I, I- I guess you have that too. Yeah. Uh, because otherwise you wouldn't, you wouldn't follow the topic, so.

Javier: Right. Um- That's awesome, man. That's really cool. Yeah. And for my listeners, i- i- if it weren't for this Javier Leiva, I wouldn't have known about the stalker Fernandez update, like that they, that their house was raided. I had no idea. One of the neighbors emailed him and- Right ... and I would have never known, so thank you, man. I, I really- Yeah ... appreciate that.

The Other Javier Leiva: Happy to help. This was fun. Yeah. Okay.

Javier: Yeah, man. This was, uh, uh, long overdue, and if I'm ever in the area, I would love to meet up and get a beer or something. Please

The Other Javier Leiva: do. Yeah. That

Javier: would be super fun. I don't even drink beer, but I, I'll drink beer with you.

The Other Javier Leiva: Yeah. I don't drink a lot, but, um-

Javier: We'll drink a- Anyway, we- ... a Dr. Pepper or something.

The Other Javier Leiva: Right. Well, that's no problem.

Javier: All right,

The Other Javier Leiva: man. All right.

Javier: Take

The Other Javier Leiva: care. Hey, thank you. Okay. Yeah. Have a good day.

Javier: Bye.

The Other Javier Leiva: Bye.

Javier: All right, now that you've met the other Javier Leiva, I want you to go visit thisispretend.com. It is my new website, so you can leave the other Javier Leiva alone. Although I personally think he likes getting my crazy emails. Could you imagine getting my emails if you're, like, a normal person? It must be wild. But if you actually want to email me a tip or just to tell me I'm doing a great job or to tell me I'm the worst person ever, 'cause I get those too, you can now do that from thisispretend.com. Get it? Like, I'm Javier Leiva, and thisispretend.com. Anyway, that's where you can find me. I'm gonna have a little special treat for those of you who go to thisispretend.com. It's gonna be a discount code, So you could get a discount on Pretend merch. So remember, thisispretend.com if you want to email me, and if you just wanna talk to the other Javier Leva, that's javierleva.com. but this Javier Leva is at thisispretend.com. Okay, that's all I got for you today. Talk to you soon.